I find this "debate" puzzling.

Certainly, "indie rock" is very white. And, in some senses at least, I do think this phenomenon is troubling.

But, I am disturbed by the idea that white bands or white crowds are necessarily more reserved, or that there is anything necessarily wrong with such a lifestyle in the first place. I thought the whole point of art was, um, freedom? Um, maybe something called personal expression?

have to admit i have not read frere-jones' first post, and it's months old and maybe i should before jumping in, but does anyone find it reductive to make it a merely black and white issue, leaves out a whole spectrum of other cultures that could/would/should be (in)appropriated from? wehn do i get my turn to be plundered, white indie rockers? when will there be a vampire weekend for chinks? or am i thinking of heavenly ten stems here?

I have to admit, that until I read Frere-Jones article and some of the resulting debate, I had thought that Sasha Frere-Jones was a black woman.

Well done -- both on the gig, and the thoughtful piece. I'm glad SFJones wrote what he did, though I'm generally uncomfortable with any uses of words like white and black that suggest they mean anything in particular. Paul Robeson and Charlie Pride are just as black as Chuck D and Kanye West. And I'm fascinated by how many rap records sample pop staples that most white fans of rap would rarely if ever listen to -- Phil Collins, Toto, etc. And I'm fairly certain those songs aren't being sampled ironically.

In addition, much of the hip-hop music I listen to -- the work of Madlib, Oh No, etc. -- seems to have a very supportive Caucasian and Asian audience, and a less than supportive African-American one -- though J Dilla's premature death has has served as a kind of backpacker-martyrdom, and yielded some crossover between backpacker and "mainstream" hip-hop, something I hope will continue.

I know SFJones is less concerned with the ethnic makeup of the musicians than with the ethnic musical legacies plumbed by the bands. I end up focusing sometimes on causes, like for example the slow end of integrated schools -- many bands form at high school and college, and if those schools aren't mixed, the bands and music that result may not be either. Also, music flows in cycles -- a few strong bands feed a scene of copycats and those young enough to be influenced without recognizing they're aping. Then something breaks out, and a new cycle begins.

It's also a "damned if you do/damned if you don't" thing -- Paul Simon, David Byrne, Jon Spencer, Chemical Brothers, Moby and many other have had to suffer a lot of flack for embracing (and profiting from) African and African-American influences, which I think is part of what you're getting at.

If that all means that today's indie bands are taking an easy route -- catering to a specific crowd and avoiding problematic cultural opportunities, then I agree entirely. I can't listen to much if anything of that stuff, though I do love my Smog and my David Dondero.

Points to George for coming up with an intersting response -- more interesting than the one posted by 'me' at least. Whats up 'me'? Somebody questioning the insular environment of 'indie rock' is upsetting your cozy, well measured, and predictable world? Get over it, personal expression is not exempt from criticism -- no matter what the media tries to tell you every day. And, at any rate, I didn't get a judgemental vibe from the Sasha Frere-Jones article, just one of nostalgia and disappointment/boredom with this current crop of acts. Although, I'm not sure we should be constantly looking back to post punk for new musical jollies either, which brings me back around to Georges comment.

George, I agree. There is a whole realm of music that could be plundered and you've opened my white eyes. But, can you really dance to Chinese music any more than you can dance to white indie rock? Do the Chinese have rhythm? I'm looking through my book of bad jokes. I'll see you at International Hits with DJ Pickpocket to see what I can learn.

Guys, guys, cut it out. As a mixed person that listens to indie rock and a lot of underground (can't forget Madvillain), I can honestly say that I've never thought of indie rock as a black or white thing. Though, I'll admit, listening to the Decemberists can make a half-sister turn a little white. I agree with Sasha Fefre-Jones for a few minutes. I'm more of a Interpol & Radiohead kind of girl.

It depends on the demographics and where the band is from. Or it could be just be, like marc said, the band's comfort levels with culture issues.