I triple-dog dare you to answer one question: what's wrong with giving parents and students the choice to attend JROTC?

Here's a few thousand reasons, ebw343:

American Military Deaths in Iraq
-------------------------------------------
Since war began (3/19/03): 4294
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03): 4155
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 3833
Since Handover (6/29/04): 3435
Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09): 66

Then add tens of thousands of American military wounded, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi dead, wounded and displaced.

Because JROTC Could Kill Them, And Others -

The answer Petra is really quite simple. Allowing students that 'choice' could lead to their unnecessary deaths, and the unnecessary deaths of other innocent people. JROTC is military propaganda tool that will lead some children to join the military and then go kill people and get themselves killed, for the financial gain of powerful elites.

Compare this to soda and junk food machines. We are now wisely banning soda and junk food from public schools because this stuff could eventually kill the children who 'choose' to eat it.

School is a place where we are -teaching- children how to live a good and healthy life, not just to do whatever the hell they want. They are not developed enough to make such life and death decisions on their own.

So it is perfectly sensible to ban both junk food and JROTC from our schools.

Left-wing fascism has killed millions more people than JROTC ever did. Taking away people's freedom, like the anti-JROTC crowd seems to be advocating, has killed more people than choice.

BTW my son took JROTC and it is not a military recruitment program. In JROTC, he learned about the U.S. Constitution, putting together a resume, community service, and of course they also marched and did calesthetics. From my experience, JROTC provided a good education to kids on community service and government, and their rights and options in life.

And of course there are the well documented statistics showing that 95% of JROTC cadets not only graduated from high school but continued on to college. Compare that to the records of many high schools in San Francisco which show a drop-out rate of more than 50%.

The anti-JROTC crowd seems to be threatened by the idea of people being educated and making their own decisions on how to live their own lives without subjecting to the "progressive" agenda.

After all, anyone who doesn't think JROTC is a valuable program, is FREE to take PE instead.

JROTC is not for everyone, but there are many students who get a lot out of the program. My son was one of them.

You didn't answer the question: What is wrong with giving parents and students the CHOICE to attend JROTC? Do you have something against FREEDOM?

And here is another question: Do you believe that it is your duty to force parents and students to live their lives to support your political agenda? If so, seems to me that you are promoting left-wing fascism. Is this the secret agenda of "progressives" these days?

Petra, you're missing the point - everyone knows that educating youth in the actual documents of governance for our nation leads to lowered support for liberal ideology, and that simply can not be permitted.
It was hard work getting all those civics courses dropped, and now JROTC wants to sneak in the side door and provide access to both a solid education in civics - they also want to actually ask the youth to get in shape !
Can't you see how a healthy and well educated populace could undermine the ongoing agenda ?
Geeezzzzz...

Folks, folks: I'm not calling you names, so knock it off; it doesn't help the debate.

I am happy to answer EBW's "triple-dog-dare" question. I don't military recruiters should be given access to anyone under 18. Period.

As for choice: You know, I don't have the "choice" as a parent to take my son with me to a bar. I don't have the "choice" to serve him liquor. He's ten years old; that, society has decided, is too young. I don't have the "choice" to let him drive my car, either; that would be dangerous, so we don't allow it.

Society makes these choices to protect kids. And I think we, as a city, should make the choice to not allow JROTC in the schools.

And by the way, my position goes well beyond the arguments about "don't ask, don't tell," which I suspect will be repealed soon anyway.

I think it makes a horrible statement that the best SFUSD can do in terms of leadership training and civics is a military model. I believe we can and must do better.

That's not fascist or a liberal theology. It's just, in my mind, good educational policy.

Tim's main problem with JROTC seems to be that he erroneously believes that JROTC allows military recruiters access to JROTC cadets.

The good news for Tim is that JROTC forbids military recruiters access to JROTC cadets.

BTW society also has a legal responsibility to provide the best education possible for each and every individual child. Seems to me that providing a VOLUNTARY program which has a record of 95% of its cadets continuing on to college (compared to a more than 50% drop out rate in many high schools in San Francisco) would be good educational policy.

Some more good news: No one wants to force Tim or his son to participate in JROTC if they don't feel it is the right decision for them.

We only ask that Tim grant us the same freedom to raise our children as we see fit that we have already granted to him. If some of us see value in learning about the U.S. Constitution, civics, community service, marching, or even something about the "military model", then so be it.

I used to take the Bay Guardian down to the polling station on election day and vote the straight "Bay Guardian" ticket. Indeed, I still do on many issues.

But as a long-time PTA officer at public schools in San Francisco, I have seen the light on the JROTC issue.

The cadets do good work in our schools and communities: cleaning up after events, organizing drumming teams. Our high schools, in particular, are BEGGING for community volunteers on campus. They get almost none.

With the middle-class all but dead in SF, the upper-middle-class WhiteFolks are all attending private schools, and immigrants and working-class people send their kids to public schools. The parents of working-class folks like the JROTC program, and their children love it.

Why deny them this choice?

JROTC kids are not Shanghaied into the army at age 16. When they become adults, they can join if they like. And very few of them do.

The principals at SFUSD high schools understand this. They are all supporters (every one) of JROTC.

Folks,

A late thought. I'm a vet and proud of it. I'm also a former special ed teacher and proud of it. Also a former firefighter and proud of it.

I favor the new SERV program which is superior to the JROTC in every way. Practical skills like running bulldozers and driving cop cars and ambulances by senior year are much better than walking in circles with flags.

To Tim, hey guy, JROTC has been here 90 years and a couple more ain't gonna make the sky fall.

h.