SF leaders condemn SEIU tactics

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SEIU President Andy Stern, perhaps the nation's most powerful union boss, has become a lightning rod for criticism.

San Franciscans seem to be turning against Service Employee International Union and its national President Andy Stern this week, first with the vote by SEIU Local 1021 members to oust Stern’s leadership team, and now with a letter signed by a broad array of top political officials condemning SEIU tactics against the National Union of Healthcare Workers.

As the Guardian reported last year, NUHW President Sal Rosselli and his management team broke away from SEIU’s United Healthcare Workers after a protracted conflict that culminated in a hostile SEIU takeover of the local, placing it under a Stern-controlled trusteeship. NUHW had criticized Stern's autocratic leadership style and undemocratic methods while SEIU accused Rosselli of using union funds to undermine Stern's decisions.

Since then, a majority of SEIU-UHW workers statewide has filed petitions asking to decertify with SEIU-UHW and affiliate with NUHW, which has won seven of the nine elections that have been held so far. So SEIU filed various complaints with the National Labor Relations Board to try to block those elections, while NUHW has complained of worker harassment and ballot meddling by SEIU.

Earlier today, SEIU-UHW sent out a press release touting an NLRB ruling that clears the way for elections at 51 facilities around the state covering 6,845 voters, blaming NUHW for “violating members’ democratic rights” in opposing those elections.

But NUHW leaders say SEIU-UHW has been “cherry-picking” selected sites where they think their chances of winning are good and keeping their NLRB complaints in place to block other sites, often dividing up bargaining units in the process to raise fears in workers that they might lose bargaining clout if they switch unions. NUHW is a relatively small organization compared to the massive SEIU.

NUHW leaders say they want a fair, up-or-down vote among all of the SEIU-UHW members statewide who have asked for elections, and they’ve asked SEIU to sign a Fair Election Agreement to prevent harassment and intimidation, something that SEIU often asks employers to sign.

Supporting that request is an open letter signed by 116 San Francisco political leaders from across the spectrum, including every member of the Board of Supervisors except Sup. Carmen Chu, Assembly members Tom Ammiano and Fiona Ma, Sen. Mark Leno, Democrat Party chair Aaron Peskin and nine other members of the DCCC, all four major candidates for the Dist. 8 Board of Supervisors seat, United Educators of San Francisco President Dennis Kelly, and representatives from a board array of unions and grassroots organizations, including UNITE-HERE, POWER, Young Workers United, Chinese Progressive Association, Coleman Advocates, and many others.

Interestingly, in addition to his critics on the left within the labor movement, Stern is also being criticized by conservatives right now after President Barack Obama appointed him to his National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform.

The Guardian has forwarded the letter and allegations to SEIU-UHW officials and is awaiting a response, which I’ll post in the comments section when I hear back.

 

The letter reads:

WE, THE UNDERSIGNED community leaders of San Francisco, are deeply troubled by allegations that the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) committed multiple, serious violations of state labor law during the union representation election between SEIU United Healthcare Workers – West (SEIU-UHW) and the National Union of Healthcare Workers (NUHW) for 10,000 Fresno County homecare workers this June.

These allegations, made in sworn testimony before the California Public Employment Relations Board, include that SEIU officials directed staff to open, mark, and alter workers’ ballots; threaten the deportation of immigrants; and tell workers they would suffer the loss of wages, benefits and hours to scare them into voting for SEIU. The complaint alleges further that SEIU organizers physically removed ballots from workers’ mailboxes and homes.

Caregivers in San Francisco have complained of similar intimidation and harassment at the hands of SEIU officials trying to block union representation elections requested by them and tens of thousands of other California healthcare workers who have petitioned to join NUHW.

Over the next year, as thousands of San Francisco homecare workers, private sector nursing home workers, and private sector hospital workers make their choice for union representation between SEIUUHW and NUHW, we are committed to see that these workers can make their decision democratically, without intimidation, harassment, threats or coercion of any kind, from any party.

NUHW officials have communicated to us their willingness to enter into Fair Election Agreements, which are common in California’s healthcare industry, and which SEIU officials have long championed throughout the nation, to govern their campaign conduct and protect caregivers’ freedom of choice in their upcoming union representation elections.

Therefore, we are asking that you and San Francisco’s healthcare employers join NUHW in negotiating Fair Election Agreements to establish ground rules for these elections and guarantee that workers can choose their representatives for themselves. Please know that regardless of your decision, we will stand united to ensure that San Francisco’s healthcare workers have the fair elections they deserve.

Comments

It is disappointing that the elected officials of San Francisco – and the SFBG with its one-sided blog – that completely overlooks the perspective of those SEIU-UHW members that stood by the UHW membership when Roselli placed in action his plan to betray some 150,000 UHW members for his own personal gain.

Those elected officials stepped out and blindly bent over so Roselli could do what he did to the UHW membership to them. Twenty-first century labor leaders have grown to understand that power comes from the people, not the man. Modern day labor does not forget. Roselli knew that and used it to help elect those SF officials and have them beholding to him, not the people.

Now that the little prince no longer sits on a perch of distinction, he only has the officials of SF to back him up. How many voters can be motivated to vote by a force of 150,000? Modern labor does not forget.

SF elected officials, who do you work for, Roselli or the people?

Each day that passes unfolds a new chapter into discovering the true intentions of Roselli and his NUHW zombies. Ask the Kaiser Southern California Professionals.

SF elected officials, modern labor does not forget.

SF officials are human and can make mistakes. Those bouts of clouded judgment can be corrected. SF elected officials, modern labor does not forget.

OK, I think you can see that I am not a fan of Sal. I have had the misfortune to experience what happens when a once good leader goes bad. I do not wish that to happen to any hard working union represented person of our American society.

I guest what I am trying to say is, BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR, YOU MIGHT GET IT.

SF elected officials, modern labor does not forget.

L.C.
nd over 6,700 of my fellow healthcare workers. In fact, these elected officials took their position without ever reaching out to us to get the facts.

Posted by Guest Larry Coleman on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 8:05 pm

It's clear these posts were written by SEIU scab staffers. All they have are lies, lies, and more lies. And when that doesn't work they turn to violence. Check out this incident that happened last week against NUHW supporters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hznSuacEN_I&feature=player_embedded

Posted by Brian on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 8:50 pm

First of all coming in to the Central Valley, has always been notorious for side agreements in the past, ask anyone who did not like the old leadership (nuhw now) for doing this. That was nothing new with them. What SEIU (our new leadership) as done now has taken members concerns, bargained over Kaiser's business decisions and taken the information back to the members so that they can vote on the decision. The recent agreement was voted on and ratified by the members. DO THE RESEARCH, ITS THE FACTS. The bargaining committee was democratically elected by the membership! DO THE RESEARCH, ITS THE FACTS.

Posted by Guest shawna stewart on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 8:55 pm

I guess Shawna forgot how to do research and how to tell the thruth (she is a seiu steward) Seiu has come in and destroyed all the work it took years to build. Seiu meets with leadership without any employees ( not even there own stewards) to make there private deals. Now we have talkes of layoffs , we have float positions, senority not being honored, understaff over worked our voice has been taking away. We had a union that cared about its members, we were equals with management we had a say on everything decision that was made. Any decisions were made by all the members with a FAIR VOTE !!!!! Now it is all lies there is no representation, no voice, no votes, just harrassment by the union that is suppose to represent you (SEIU) all they do is go to management and try to get you fired!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF UNION IS THIS ? In the central valley when you talk about a bargaining team that was democratically elected. ( DONT MAKE ME LAUGH) The bargaining team we wanted to represent us was not allowed to be on the ballot ( BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE ON A FLYER FOR SEIU) When members went to vote for the members that were nominated they were not allowed to vote ! Tell the thruth Shawna that is how we ended up with the incompetent bargaining team we have. When they screw the members what do they say .( I am doing the best I can I have never done this before.) Then move over and let the professionals in because you and seiu have screwed enough members. SEIU IS A UNION FOR MANAGEMENT AND IS BAD FOR WORKERS. SEIU PUT YOUR TAIL BETWEEN YOUR LEGS CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK TAKE ALL YOUR SO CALLED STEWARDS WITH YOU WE ARE TAKING OUR UNION BACK WITH THRUTH AND DIGNITY NOT THREATS AND HARRASSMENT WE ARE NUHW A UNION FOR WORKERS RUN BY WORKERS

Posted by Guest NUHW AND PROUD OF IT on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 8:02 pm

I guess Shawna forgot how to do research and how to tell the thruth (she is a seiu steward) Seiu has come in and destroyed all the work it took years to build. Seiu meets with leadership without any employees ( not even there own stewards) to make there private deals. Now we have talkes of layoffs , we have float positions, senority not being honored, understaff over worked our voice has been taking away. We had a union that cared about its members, we were equals with management we had a say on everything decision that was made. Any decisions were made by all the members with a FAIR VOTE !!!!! Now it is all lies there is no representation, no voice, no votes, just harrassment by the union that is suppose to represent you (SEIU) all they do is go to management and try to get you fired!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF UNION IS THIS ? In the central valley when you talk about a bargaining team that was democratically elected. ( DONT MAKE ME LAUGH) The bargaining team we wanted to represent us was not allowed to be on the ballot ( BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE ON A FLYER FOR SEIU) When members went to vote for the members that were nominated they were not allowed to vote ! Tell the thruth Shawna that is how we ended up with the incompetent bargaining team we have. When they screw the members what do they say .( I am doing the best I can I have never done this before.) Then move over and let the professionals in because you and seiu have screwed enough members. SEIU IS A UNION FOR MANAGEMENT AND IS BAD FOR WORKERS. SEIU PUT YOUR TAIL BETWEEN YOUR LEGS CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK TAKE ALL YOUR SO CALLED STEWARDS WITH YOU WE ARE TAKING OUR UNION BACK WITH THRUTH AND DIGNITY NOT THREATS AND HARRASSMENT WE ARE NUHW A UNION FOR WORKERS RUN BY WORKERS

Posted by Guest NUHW AND PROUD OF IT on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 8:02 pm

I guess Shawna forgot how to do research and how to tell the thruth (she is a seiu steward) Seiu has come in and destroyed all the work it took years to build. Seiu meets with leadership without any employees ( not even there own stewards) to make there private deals. Now we have talkes of layoffs , we have float positions, senority not being honored, understaff over worked our voice has been taking away. We had a union that cared about its members, we were equals with management we had a say on everything decision that was made. Any decisions were made by all the members with a FAIR VOTE !!!!! Now it is all lies there is no representation, no voice, no votes, just harrassment by the union that is suppose to represent you (SEIU) all they do is go to management and try to get you fired!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF UNION IS THIS ? In the central valley when you talk about a bargaining team that was democratically elected. ( DONT MAKE ME LAUGH) The bargaining team we wanted to represent us was not allowed to be on the ballot ( BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE ON A FLYER FOR SEIU) When members went to vote for the members that were nominated they were not allowed to vote ! Tell the thruth Shawna that is how we ended up with the incompetent bargaining team we have. When they screw the members what do they say .( I am doing the best I can I have never done this before.) Then move over and let the professionals in because you and seiu have screwed enough members. SEIU IS A UNION FOR MANAGEMENT AND IS BAD FOR WORKERS. SEIU PUT YOUR TAIL BETWEEN YOUR LEGS CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK TAKE ALL YOUR SO CALLED STEWARDS WITH YOU WE ARE TAKING OUR UNION BACK WITH THRUTH AND DIGNITY NOT THREATS AND HARRASSMENT WE ARE NUHW A UNION FOR WORKERS RUN BY WORKERS

Posted by Guest NUHW AND PROUD OF IT on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 8:06 pm

I guess Shawna forgot how to do research and how to tell the thruth (she is a seiu steward) Seiu has come in and destroyed all the work it took years to build. Seiu meets with leadership without any employees ( not even there own stewards) to make there private deals. Now we have talkes of layoffs , we have float positions, senority not being honored, understaff over worked our voice has been taking away. We had a union that cared about its members, we were equals with management we had a say on everything decision that was made. Any decisions were made by all the members with a FAIR VOTE !!!!! Now it is all lies there is no representation, no voice, no votes, just harrassment by the union that is suppose to represent you (SEIU) all they do is go to management and try to get you fired!!!!!! WHAT KIND OF UNION IS THIS ? In the central valley when you talk about a bargaining team that was democratically elected. ( DONT MAKE ME LAUGH) The bargaining team we wanted to represent us was not allowed to be on the ballot ( BECAUSE THEY WOULD NOT BE ON A FLYER FOR SEIU) When members went to vote for the members that were nominated they were not allowed to vote ! Tell the thruth Shawna that is how we ended up with the incompetent bargaining team we have. When they screw the members what do they say .( I am doing the best I can I have never done this before.) Then move over and let the professionals in because you and seiu have screwed enough members. SEIU IS A UNION FOR MANAGEMENT AND IS BAD FOR WORKERS. SEIU PUT YOUR TAIL BETWEEN YOUR LEGS CRAWL BACK UNDER YOUR ROCK TAKE ALL YOUR SO CALLED STEWARDS WITH YOU WE ARE TAKING OUR UNION BACK WITH THRUTH AND DIGNITY NOT THREATS AND HARRASSMENT WE ARE NUHW A UNION FOR WORKERS RUN BY WORKERS

Posted by Guest NUHW AND PROUD OF IT on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 8:06 pm

It is incredible how naive and stupid this politicians and so called community leaders are. They are letting corrupt leaders to use them for their political power grabbing purposes. Does any one think about the workers? I am a nursing home at San Marco Convalescent hospital. A year ago my contract was terminated by former uhw leaders. We have been trying to settle our contract and now our employer is refusing to bargain until we get the election done. But we can't move on because nuhw refuses to agree to an election. Because of them, we are now stuck. All those politicians should be ashamed of themselves and tell nuhw to get the hell out of our facility.

Posted by Guest on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 11:04 pm

As a hospital worker in the Bay Area for 27 years, I am apalled that at the level of lies and hypocrasy that Roselli and his boy Borsos have sunk to!

He preaches about "democracy" yet fails to disclose that he had kept his hold on power for over 25 years. Prior to his leaving SEIU-UHU he gave out lifetime appointments to his cronies to oversee the union's Education Fund. Now many young healthcare workers in the Bay Area have been robbed of the opportunity to return to school and learn and reach for higher paying jobs such as radiology, and nursing.

Former SEIU leaders and staff, now NUHW, have abused the trust of healthcare workers throughout California by: failing to bargain in "good faith" in order to keep contracts open for the purpose of filing decertification petitions. To gain these signatures, NUHW staffers tricked and cast a web of lies and created confusion. They took advantage of workers for whom English is not the primary language in order to extort the signatures they now tout.

NUHW supporters will come to learn the hard way that the team of Roselli and Borsos are nothing more than crooks, and liars who checked their integrity at the door a LONG TIME AGO!

Posted by Guest: Healthcare Worker on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 11:05 pm

I think Steven, Sal and all those politicians are stupid. Who cares what 100 politicians say. What Sal, Steven and their 100 dumb friends should know is that on Monday march 1st, me and other nursing home workers went to deliver an open letter to Sal with 1000 signatures demanding that he leaves us alone. That should be news worthy. Here it's an idea: why doesn't Sal, Steven and their 100 friends take the midnight express back to hell where they belong. Sal: if you did not get the message on Monday, I repeat it for you: We don't want you. 1000 nursing home workers and counting say so. Go to hell!

Posted by Guest on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 11:22 pm

I'm a California IHSS Caregiver, taking care of my Grandmother for 7 years. Seven years is not as long as some other Healthcare workers who have been in SEIU-UHW, and I am thankful for all previous work that preceding members have done over the years. But I think there are many members who are confused about the concept of Loyalty and Tradition.
I used to be proud to wear the purple and yellow when I became aware of the Union that help sustain my wonderful job. I would volunteer and do what ever I could to help UHW. It was good to also meet and see other Healthcare workers wearing the same colors and having the same aspirations, keeping our California Union strong.
But once I started to see that our Union was being lead by some bigger International leader from outside California, I took notice and knew that was not for me. Go take a look at SEIU's website and look for the tab " SEIU Locals", and see on the map how many purple dots are on the East Coast. That alone made me think, " who are these people from back east, trying to tell us Californians how to run our Union. Why the hell would Andy Stern want to force us Northern California Workers into a Southern California Local that gets paid a couple of dollars less than us?
My Loyalty is with California. I am not bound by any Tradition of a Purple myth. I am in this struggle for people like my Grandmother. My Grandmother would be ashamed if I ever compromised my ideals just because I was afraid to resist and defy a unjust bully like SEIU. This is San Francisco, this is California, SEIU need to think twice before trying to force it's Imperialistic tactics on us. NUHW will set the standard and be loyal to that cause, setting the tradition for other Healthcare workers to join.
" Purple Haze all in my Brain,
UHW, it don't seem the same,
SEIU's acting Funny, and they love to Lie,
Excuse me, while I kiss them Goodbye."

Posted by MADGUY on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 11:28 pm

As a healthcare worker taking care of patients for over 28 years, I am appalled at the level of hypocrisy from Roselli and his boy Borsos!

He preaches "Democracy" yet why has he kept himself in power for over 25 years? Why does he still refuse to give power up?

Before he left SEIU-UHW, why did he appoint his cronies to oversee the union's education fund - FOR LIFE! Which leads me to ask, why have so many of my young co-workers who are seeking higher paying jobs in healthare such as radiology and respiratory techs, RN's been told that the money they counted on for school is gone? Where did you hide the money Sal?

Why did he and Borsos fail to bargain in "good faith" and keep so many contracts open throughout California? And NO, leaving your members unprotected by a contract is NOT strategy...it's Gross Misconduct!

If he and the now current leaders of NUHW thought that healthcare workers really wanted to leave SEIU-UHW, then why did they have to create so much confusion in order to get those signatres they talk about? I signed a decert petition last year. However, given what I have learned since then, I wish I NEVER had. Most others feel the same way too.

In the end, NUHW supporters will come to learn a painful fact, that the team of Roselli/Borsos and their minions are nothing more than thieves and liars who have checked their integrity at the door a LONG time ago!

SHAME ON THEM...ROT IN PRISON...SEE YOU MARCH 23rd!

Posted by Guest: Healthcare Worker on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 11:32 pm

What Sal roselli needs to do is to get a new job. Since he is so good at trashing our union, he should have his special program with glen beck. They both have so much in common: they serve the anti union agenda in this country. FYI Sal we think you are a cheat and a fake. Agree to elections and we will show you what we mean.

Posted by Guest on Mar. 03, 2010 @ 11:35 pm

I find it disconcerting when elected city officials don't do their homework before deciding who they will support, give financial donations, or publish community opinions about. SEIU-UHW was the original union and still is the original union. The only change is it's line of leadership which have been removed for alleged criminal activities. These charges were investigated by the National Labor Board and the said Leaders; Roselli, and Borsos will be facing a Civil Court Date on March 22,2010.
If these former UHW leaders had not been involved in numerous illegal schemes involving large sums of member dues,stealing property and files that were not legally their right to abscond, then they would not be facing criminal charges today.
So, I ask now: Can these ousted leaders ever be trusted again with members dues and contracts?
I worked on the bargaining team for 6 months and we reached a strong, fair, and supported contract at our hospital. At no time were members turned away from joining the team or just sitting in listening to the bargaining session. The NUHW supporters were encouraged to come to the many scheduled bargaining meetings but they declined. If they were so concerned about the members and reaching a suitable contract that represented all members of their hospital, Then Where Were They?
SEIU-UHW fought long and hard and are still fighting at many hospitals for STRONG contracts for the workers. We reached a good contract through teamwork, dedication, and commitment to serve our co-workers to best of our abilities. Our fellow union members depended on us to reach a contract settlement that reflected their needs and values, neither SEIU-UHW nor the Bargaining Team took that for granted. We were and still are in the fight for all Health Care Workers and we will continue to fight for workers rights in the workplace!

Posted by Guest: Tami Richmond on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 12:10 am

I work at Tiburcio Vasquez Health Center in Hayward and I am shocked and outraged that these so called community leaders and political hacks have the audacity to attack my union, SEIU-UHW. What I don't understand is why they didn't at least come to us to hear both sides before they signed on to such a statement. The irony is that when we are fighting our boss for a fair contract and when we ask these politicians to sign a letter of support they always say, "let's talk to your boss first, before I sign.".
If they would of came to me I could of shared the story of what NUHW did to me and my co-workers at Tiburcio.
Sal Roselli and his lackies let our contract expire without any real intention to bargain a new contract. We were confused as to why this was happening because in previous years we always started bargaining prior to expiration. Well it became quote clear as to why Sal let this happen. In January are rep Kim Tavaglione showed up and told us that we were all switching unions to a new union called NUHW. She tricked us into decertifying our union. We were confused. But fortunately SEIU-UHW committed staff came to clear up the confusion and help us get back to the table to bargain a new contract. However, bargaining was quite dificult because our boss new that there was a decert with NUHW. Sow amy co-workers created a petition that asked NUHW to pull out the election so management would stop taking advantage of us. Over 85% of my co-workers signed this petition in one week. We presented it to NUHW but they ignored it helping are boss at te bargaining table. Despite their tactics we demonstrated unity and went on a one day strike to win the best contract we've ever had. As I write today we still are waiting to vote on whether to stick wit our union, SEIU-UHW or go with NUHW or no union. I can proudly say that as of today 94% of my co-workers have signed a public petition committing our vote to stick with SEIU-UHW.

Posted by SEIU-UHW Member, Tiburcio Vasquez on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 5:25 am

I work at Tiburcio Vasquez Health Center in Hayward and I am shocked and outraged that these so called community leaders and political hacks have the audacity to attack my union, SEIU-UHW. What I don't understand is why they didn't at least come to us to hear both sides before they signed on to such a statement. The irony is that when we are fighting our boss for a fair contract and when we ask these politicians to sign a letter of support they always say, "let's talk to your boss first, before I sign.".
If they would of came to me I could of shared the story of what NUHW did to me and my co-workers at Tiburcio.
Sal Roselli and his lackies let our contract expire without any real intention to bargain a new contract. We were confused as to why this was happening because in previous years we always started bargaining prior to expiration. Well it became quote clear as to why Sal let this happen. In January are rep Kim Tavaglione showed up and told us that we were all switching unions to a new union called NUHW. She tricked us into decertifying our union. We were confused. But fortunately SEIU-UHW committed staff came to clear up the confusion and help us get back to the table to bargain a new contract. However, bargaining was quite dificult because our boss new that there was a decert with NUHW. Sow amy co-workers created a petition that asked NUHW to pull out the election so management would stop taking advantage of us. Over 85% of my co-workers signed this petition in one week. We presented it to NUHW but they ignored it helping are boss at te bargaining table. Despite their tactics we demonstrated unity and went on a one day strike to win the best contract we've ever had. As I write today we still are waiting to vote on whether to stick wit our union, SEIU-UHW or go with NUHW or no union. I can proudly say that as of today 94% of my co-workers have signed a public petition committing our vote to stick with SEIU-UHW.

Posted by SEIU-UHW Member, Tiburcio Vasquez on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 5:27 am

I am a recently retired Marin homecare worker and steward and I would like to say that in 2009 in Marin County SEIU-UHW did things the right way. Is this a fluke? Don't know. But I know this - we had the same rep all year that we'd had the year before. The staff we dealt with were all from California and all familiar with Marin and the politics of the North Bay. This stability was very important for both the workers and the Marin Public Authority.

I think one of the true weaknesses of the UHW trusteeship is the way Californians have been ignored and mistrusted as employees - there has been an attitude of East v. West that has been really wrong. It created the situation we saw early in the trustreeship where people from out of state could create bad situations and then get on the plane and go home, leaving members here to clean up the mess made by their rash actions.

Had the trustees been wililng to hire Californians who could help explain the lay of the land to them, local customs and manners, we all would be better off. Some of the labor and time consuming NUHW / UHW struggles that have prevented us from fighting Arnold's ruthlessness might have been avoided or handled in a way that would leave both groups the resources we need for lobbying in Sacramento.

Years ago, at a UHW leadership conference I was impressed by Sal Roselli's saying that we would not automatically align ourselves with any groups (like the Democratic Party for example) but would remain free to work with anyone that would be helpful to our causes. Personally, I feel the same way about NUHW and UHW - I felt as a steward my job was to concentrate on getting the best deal for the workers. Period.

In Marin County, in 2009, that was SEIU's UHW. We'll see what the future brings.

Meanwhile, I think the Santa Rosa Memorial Hospital election and the success of the Marin contract efforts for Marin homecare workers both show results from the same "tactics" - dealing with people you have worked with for years, people with whom you have true relationships, people who know the political landscape and who are unlikely to ignore local labor councils, the Democratic Party or alienate those with local influence.

Victory to the workers, regardless of the union they choose to join! It's the ability to choose, to have a seat at the table, to negotiate our own contracts that is truly important. In the case of Marin County, in 2009, SEIU-UHW fulfilled those obligations. I know that other counties have suffered different fates - and I know California healthcare workers will choose the organizations or choose to create their own organizations that will WORK for them regardless of the initials involved.

Posted by Guest Carol Taylor on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 9:50 am

To clarify - Santa Rosa Memorial Hospital was an NUHW victory. The Marin Board of Supervisors'guaranteeing our wage - saying that the county would pay the difference to keep IHSS workers at the same hourly rate if the governor should succeed in cutting the state's share to us - was an SEIU-UHW victory.

Both are studies in success - both are worth modeling new campaigns after.

In both cases the same organizers worked with us for years; years-long communtiy relationships were formed with faith and activist groups as well as officials and private individuals and with the local press.

In our case the trusteed UHW continued to nurture the relationships and courses of action that were in place when the new trustees came in.

(Thank you, Marin Interfaith Worker Justice. Thank you, Living Wage Coalition. Special thanks to Ben Boyce, Rev. Pamela Griffith-Pond and Norman Solomon. You've made a difference in thousands of caregivers' and clients' lives.)

SEIU-UHW paid for our organizer (thank you, Michael Viloria), our busses to Sacramento. They designed fliers and paid the phone, office, printing and mailing bills. They helped organize our presentations to the Board of Supervisors and arranged face-to-face meetings with our State Senator Mark Leno and our State Assemblyman Jared Huffman.

And let's not forget that SEIU used member dues to file the legal complaints against the state that got workers their back pay and restored our wages in the face of threatened pay cuts. Our local actions were much stronger when our supes knew that we were being backed up in the courts.

It is my hope that UHW and NUHW will sharpen each other like steel on steel - a rivalry that bring forward the best in each.

Workers rising!

CT

Posted by Carol Taylor on Mar. 05, 2010 @ 7:31 pm

My name is Samuel Thompson, I live in Fresno, CA and take care of my 100 year old mother. We have been working hard and uniting our members and have won some great victories, We attend the Board of Supervisors whenever the Board meets in numbers. This week we had over 200 members at the Board of Supervisors with great speakers. In 2008 the old leadership forgot about homecare workers here in Fresno and did nothing but organize to fight the International Union. They had no rallys at the Board of Supervisors, they did nothing to prepare for the fight against the Governor trying to cut IHSS, they did not prepare homecare members for the fight against the Board of Supervisors trying to cut our wages. All they cared about was to organize this new union without the members knowledge of having a voice in the decision. In a meeting that was held by SEIU-UHW in Febrauary of 2009 there were a couple of NUHW supporters who came in and disrupted the meeting to tell us that NUHW was 90,000 members strong. These NUHW supporters screamed out that they were a strong union. NUHW leaders lied to there own supporters because as of today they have no homecare members. NUHW needs to find workers that are not organized and leave SEIU-UHW members alone.
Samuel Thompson, Frenso homecare worker

Posted by Samuel Thompson on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 9:53 am

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Being paid to take care of a family member is the epitome of a corrupt and tragically flawed system. IHSS is the type of entity that helps people like Meg Whitman. By the way, if she gets in next fall, thank Andy.

Posted by Union Nurse on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 2:04 pm

Union Nurse posted that "Being paid to take care of a family member is the epitome of a corrupt and tragically flawed system. IHSS is the type of entity that helps people like Meg Whitman. By the way, if she gets in next fall, thank Andy."

HUH?

The Governor has said the same thing -that family members should be forced out of the home to earn wages to pay strangers to care for their loved ones.

WHAT?? We need to know why these people "think" this way in order to correct anyone who might fall for their nonsense and to make sure these odd people don't continue to threaten the well-being of the most frail of our citizens and family members.

What ARE they thinking? Can anyone explain? That's the only way I know to make sure the truth gets out there!

Thanks!

Carol Taylor

Posted by Carol Taylor on Apr. 09, 2010 @ 9:31 am

I've had some dealing with SEIU from both sides, even negotiating contracts from the union side as a shop steward.

Over the years as a member I slowly got turned off by the constant lying and scheming directed at the employer and management by the union on behalf of some of the stupidest and most worthless employees. The most gung-ho union shouters also tended to be the most useless and paranoid as employees.

Nothing was too despicable for the union; theft, time card fraud, vandalism, it was all good, just getting over on the man I suppose.

After decades of this lying, scheming and delusional non-sense it is ingrained in the union culture. I have to say, I am a bit surprised by this nasty of a turn of events, but when the culture is that there is no wrong answer and the us versus them mentality, I guess I shouldn't be.

People died on the docks of SF so that competing political machines can try and screw the little people? When companies who could really do with a union, say Wallmart, see these antics and schemes they probably laugh and laugh, and then dig in even deeper not wanting to have to deal with this crowd of bullshit artists.

Posted by glen matlock on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 9:53 am

I have been a homecare for 15 years. I have been an active member of seiu-uhw since we got the first contract in 2004. In 2008 I noticed a change in the commitment of the local leaders of UHW. There was less concern for fighting the wage cuts proposed by the State and Fresno Board of Supervisors. They showed no interest in organizing rallies and lobbies to stop the cuts. Instead, this old leadership spent millions of dollars of members money to secretly organize a new Union later named NUHW. During the election campaign, their supporters lied to us and used pressure tactics to get us to vote for them. I was told the UHW Office on Wishon Avenue has been closed and all the staff were now in NUHW. I went to UHW Office to see for myself and found that NUHW was lying big time. What a shame! NUHW even disagreed with the result of the election even though they were in the same room with everyone else when the ballot envelopes were opened and the votes counted. They did not dispute the procedure until after the final count when they found out that UHW won and NUHW lost. NUHW should accept defeat honorably and stop spreading bogus lies.

Posted by EDUBIJES FLORES, Fresno Homecare worker on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 11:08 am

Over the past year we have worked hard to secure good contract – that include wage increases and protects healthcare and other benefits.  In these fights we have had to not only fight management, but we have had to fight a group trying to divide workers and interfere in our facilities.

Doug Gordon , EVS
Sutter Delta

Posted by doug gordon on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 3:00 pm

...and how pitiful is it for elected officials to be swayed so easily...i agree with the above sentiments that asked how you signed this letter without talking to both sides...you've given politics a worse name...

...i truly feel bad for the s. ca kaiser professionals...they voted their anger over their local being consolidated into another...now nuhw, newwho?, has screwed them without even a kiss...

...sal, if you're reading this, what goes around, comes around...fyi, we voted 135 to 5 to start a new education fund without you as lifetime trustee...ta ta...

Posted by Guest bob lewis on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 9:42 pm

...sal, you lost your way...you were out-organized by andy and as you well know that's the name of the game...our allies from all around the country, local unions that supported us in past fights with the int'l union did not support you this time...that's when it became clear which was the right side to be on...btw, at my worksite we voted 135 to 5 to start a new education fund without you...your own supporters didn't vote...all 10 of them...

...politicians that don't listen to both sides before opening their mouths...how stupid is that?...

Posted by Guest bob lewis on Mar. 04, 2010 @ 10:18 pm

So, Andy Stern has just been appointed by the administration as an expert on debt? But, what happens when an International Union include dues in their accounts receivable from locals that are in trusteeship and other troubled locals that anyone should realize will never be able to pay? If accounts receivables are inaccurately high and an organization continues to spend...doesn't that add up to insolvency? If that puts you millions and millions of dollars in the hole with no way out, doesn't that only leave bankruptcy? Maybe the administration has found the right man for the job...one with experience.

Posted by Purple Trouble on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 7:06 am

I applaud the SF BOS and other leaders for attempting to hold Stern's feet to the fire, even though I doubt it will wipe the permanent sneer of his smug face. I have been a member of SEIU for decades, and since Stern unilaterally separated us from AFL-CIO, the "union" has been circling the drain while the purple kool-aid drinking mignons with no backbone and not an original idea in their tiny pin heads promote his single handed agenda. Sal was no angel, but at least he had the juevos to stand up to Stern and his band of yes men thieves. Anyone with any grey matter wants John Borsos in their corner at contract negotiating time. Roselli and Borsos would never have allowed some of the poorest members-certified nursing assistants to be downgraded for less wages and less rights in the workplace. Decertification is the only way to restore meaning to the defiled terms, "member-driven union."

Posted by Union Nurse on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 1:26 pm

I applaud the SF BOS and other leaders in holding Stern's feet to the fire, even though I doubt it will wipe the permanent sneer off his face. I have been an SEIU member, steward for decades, and ever since Stern unilaterally decided to separate from the AFL-CIO, the "union" has been circling the drain, aided and abetted by ignorant purple kool-aid drinking mignons who don't have an original idea in their lemming-like heads. Sal was no angel, but at least he had the juevos to stand up to Stern and his band of thieves. Roselli would never have allowed some of our poorest members-certified nurses' assistants-to be downgraded for less wages and protections as has happened here in what used to be the strongest union town in our country. Anyone with any inkling of grey matter wants Borsos in their corner at contract negotiations. I will support any attempt at decertifying SEIU in order to enable the members to regain their proper place at the table.

Posted by Union Nurse on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 1:40 pm

I applaud the SF BOS and other leaders in holding Stern's feet to the fire, even though I doubt it will wipe the permanent sneer off his face. I have been an SEIU member, steward for decades, and ever since Stern unilaterally decided to separate from the AFL-CIO, the "union" has been circling the drain, aided and abetted by ignorant purple kool-aid drinking mignons who don't have an original idea in their lemming-like heads. Sal was no angel, but at least he had the juevos to stand up to Stern and his band of thieves. Roselli would never have allowed some of our poorest members-certified nurses' assistants-to be downgraded for less wages and protections as has happened here in what used to be the strongest union town in our country. Anyone with any inkling of grey matter wants Borsos in their corner at contract negotiations. I will support any attempt at decertifying SEIU in order to enable the members to regain their proper place at the table.

Posted by Union Nurse on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 1:41 pm

I applaud the SF BOS and other leaders in holding Stern's feet to the fire, even though I doubt it will wipe the permanent sneer off his face. I have been an SEIU member, steward for decades, and ever since Stern unilaterally decided to separate from the AFL-CIO, the "union" has been circling the drain, aided and abetted by ignorant purple kool-aid drinking mignons who don't have an original idea in their lemming-like heads. Sal was no angel, but at least he had the juevos to stand up to Stern and his band of thieves. Roselli would never have allowed some of our poorest members-certified nurses' assistants-to be downgraded for less wages and protections as has happened here in what used to be the strongest union town in our country. Anyone with any inkling of grey matter wants Borsos in their corner at contract negotiations. I will support any attempt at decertifying SEIU in order to enable the members to regain their proper place at the table.

Posted by Union Nurse on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 1:41 pm

Sorry folks, I edited my post and didn't realize the darn things already got posted.

Posted by Union Nurse on Mar. 06, 2010 @ 1:49 pm

i agree with bob lewis, "sal lost his way" that started when sal hired borsos. borsos belongs in the university so that he can preach his politics all day long without hurting workers. borsos's politic has no place in my/our contract, it does not feed my family and send my kids to school.

as far as negotiation is concern, yes he can yell at the boss, but so what! anybody with a mouth and no brain can do that. i was a UHW member for 30 years and on the UHW staff for a while, i have not seen anyone worse than John Borsos in contract negotiation.

i have this to say to john borsos, stay out of the labor movement.

Posted by retired UHW member on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 8:56 am

It is a privilege to speak in behalf of SEIU-UHW. I have been a union member for over 5 years working in a nursing facility. We experienced that without the help of our union, we can't stand strong to fight for our rights, resulting in people losing their job and being wrongfully terminated by the management. During those times, we are hang up with open and expired contract. Despite with the leagal battle with NUHW, we were ableto pursue in renewing our contract and we believe that we can have a promising contract this March 2010 that will secure for our future.

The lack of credibility of NUHW creates a lot of confusions to all their members and putting their future at risk without concrete and solid foundation. In this economic times. what we need is a union like SEIU-UHW who will back us up toward our objectives and move forward. We have seem that they have strong and supportive leaders that we can rely.

Posted by Guest leah on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 2:53 pm

For all of those who accuse me of bias or siding with NUHW, the one thing that's clear to me after covering this story for the past year is that there are many workers on both sides of this debate. Sorting out how the majority of workers really feel isn't about me talking to "the workers" or getting "the facts." The only way to know now the majority really feels and who they want to represent them is by allowing full and fair elections, which is what this letter from SF officials called for. So I would love to hear the SEIU commenters from this post address why that isn't appropriate. After all, Local 1021 rejected Stern's team when they had the chance, and that's a more compelling "fact" to me than formulaic blog comments from Central Valley workers who have obviously been directed to this blog post.

Posted by steven on Mar. 07, 2010 @ 9:15 pm

...if someone robs my house and continues to lurk around my house for no good reason other than to disrupt the neighborhood, you think i'd trust them to enter into a fair agreement on anything, much less an election for me & my co-workers future...money was taken from the local, my co-workers are asked to trust those that took the money...i don't think so...

Posted by bob lewis on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 3:37 pm

Sal Rosselli stole millions of dollars from my union, i work at Kaiser i am getting ready to negotiate my contract, Sal is trying to divide us by attempting to decertify my union. why would i trust him and enter into a fair agreement.

So, let me ask you this Steven would you enter into a fair agreement with someone who stole from you and is trying to rob your house?..... i hope not.

Posted by Yvonne Davila, Kaiser Fresno on Mar. 08, 2010 @ 4:27 pm

18 years ago, I was a young CNA working and going to school to become a Radiology Tech. At the time I first met Sal Roselli who introduced himself as the president of my union. I was happy to meet him and shook his hand.

Today, I make a good living as Rad Tech. But now as I remember that moment when I shook Sal's hand, a great sense of shame overcomes me! I feel that everytime Sal shook a healthcare worker's hand, he came closer to betraying their trust, the way politicans do when they kiss babies, then cut funding for schools and children's healthcare.

When I saw Sal in the cafeteria that day...I should have kept on walking.

You're a TRAITOR Sal...GOOD RIDDENCE!!!

Posted by Lisette on Mar. 11, 2010 @ 9:23 am

I was a member of UHW before accepting a staff position a few months before the trusteeship. Our former leadership team helped our members achieve great things before the middle of 2008. Unfortunately, I can now see that the actions of those leaders changed at that time, as the fight with SEIU became more important than all other things. Settling quality contracts and preventing the State budget discussion from hurting our members began to take second place.

Since the trusteeship, I have discovered many actions our former leaders took which I cannot reasonably defend as being in the members' interests. Many of these decisions weakened members at their workplaces; some decisions put members at great risk of losing Labor representation altogether.

What brings me to comment here is the absolutely shameful, unsubstantiated, false charges put forth in the second paragraph of the open letter shared above. I was a leader of members and staff on the Fresno County Homecare workers campaign. That election has been validated, with Fresno homecare workers voting to keep SEIU UHW as their representative. The "allegations", now nearly a year old, have not been found to be factual by the agency in charge of enforcing the law in this area.

All the allegations are false. There was no organized effort by "SEIU officials" to direct the many SEIU UHW members and staff on this campaign to violate labor law in the ways mentioned. Particularly offensive is the claim of "threaten(ing) the deportation of immigrants." This accusation is cowardly in the extreme; there's simply no other way to put it. My former leaders know me. They owe me, and particularly SEIU UHW members on this campaign, an apology for associating us with such a defamatory charge. I'll never think of them in the same way again.

These lies reflect the absolute worst in trade unionism. I believe San Francisco leaders who signed on will regret associating themselves with it. Eventually, facts will win out and members will continue to make their decisions about future representation through methods approved by labor law. The stain on our former leaders from these nasty lies are unlikely to go away.

Posted by Doug Jones on Mar. 13, 2010 @ 4:15 pm

Steven,

When it comes to "sorting out how the majority of workers really feel" in the city/county, look to what happened late last year. In their SEIU decertification campaign, NUHW failed to gain signatures from 30% of the full In-Home Support Service membership in San Francisco. Their failure to meet the 30% threshold necessary to hold an election has been confirmed by the Public Employment Relations Board.

Therefore, a call to hold an election for these SEIU UHW members is one which has already been rejected by those members. If NUHW couldn't get 30% on petitions late last year, what leads a reasonable person to think that they could win 50%+1 votes in an election now?

I've already identified the falseness of the Fresno homecare charges. Steven, I'd ask you to read the "Open letter" carefully. Note the slick, conflating language of the third paragraph. "Caregivers in San Francisco have complained of similar intimidation" to Fresno, it claims. Note the omission of the "allegations, made in sworn testimony before" PERB. Use your journalist hat. Doesn't this give you the impression that PERB has not recieved an official allegation that SEIU violated labor law during this S.F. IHSS campaign, false allegation or not? Again, what is the evidence that an election should be held?

It's also disappointing to see you claim that these comments are filled with "formulaic blog comments from Central Valley workers" in an attempt to discredit them. SEIU UHW is a statewide Union; NUHW is attempting to decertify them statewide. A fair person would say that experiences from SEIU UHW members throughout the State are quite relevant, on both sides.

I'd also ask you to recognize that a number of pro-SEIU UHW posts here have been from members in the Bay Counties, such as Tiburcio Vasquez throughout the East Bay, Sutter Delta in Antioch, San Marco in Concord, IHSS workers in Marin County, and Sutter Solano in Vallejo.

I'm glad that you understand that "there are many workers on both sides of this debate". However, your comment here reflects a view behind your coverage that discounts the SEIU supporters. You point out that the SEIU 1021 leadership team installed by Stern's SEIU International was recently rejected. Doesn't that result reflect democracy in action at that SEIU Local, as did the recent failed decert petition effort with S.F. IHSS workers at our SEIU Local? Each result represented the will of those members; both should be respected.

Posted by Doug Jones on Mar. 13, 2010 @ 5:50 pm

I have just read both pages of comments and your full story. The story furiously spins facts NUHW's way. It omits relevant facts such as the civil trial beginning on March 22nd where many members of our former leadership will face charges which could lead to assessments of millions of dollars of damages to compensate for theft, document destruction and other claims.

Some commenters are from San Francisco; in your recent response comment, you seem to intentionally ignore that. Finally, read these comments again. To claim that pro-SEIU commenters have put forth "formulaic blog comments" is far from the truth. A fair reading would call most of these comments incredibly passionate, full of personal details of their experiences, and as far from formulaic as could be imagined. My disappointment with the lack of fairness reflected in your news story and blog comment gets higher and higher.

Posted by Doug Jones on Mar. 13, 2010 @ 7:14 pm

I have just read both pages of comments and your full story. The story furiously spins facts NUHW's way. It omits relevant facts such as the civil trial beginning on March 22nd where many members of our former leadership will face charges which could lead to assessments of millions of dollars of damages to compensate for theft, document destruction and other claims.

Some commenters are from San Francisco; in your recent response comment, you seem to intentionally ignore that. Finally, read these comments again. To claim that pro-SEIU commenters have put forth "formulaic blog comments" is far from the truth. A fair reading would call most of these comments incredibly passionate, full of personal details of their experiences, and as far from formulaic as could be imagined. My disappointment with the lack of fairness reflected in your news story and blog comment gets higher and higher.

Posted by Doug Jones on Mar. 13, 2010 @ 7:18 pm

I mean really! Did Sal and the gang ever think WHO IS REALLY BENEFITING by all this division? I can think think of only one group and it is not the workers he swore for years to protect. The hospital corporations are the only winners here. He left contracts open to set THE WORKERS up to go through decert after decert. Not everybody understands what it is like to go through an election with the corporate machines like Sutter, HCA and others. Unfortunately myself, my co-workers and our families do. Not knowing the fate of ones livelihood is a stress like no other. How anyone could support someone screwing over regular workers is beyond me. Not to mention the blatant stealing of money, grievance files, oh yes and the continued assault on the Kaiser education fund! People who read article I beg you, look into the facts not the hype and smoke screen created by a spin doctor that is Sal Roselli.

Posted by Nicole on Mar. 13, 2010 @ 10:07 pm

hopefully Sal's supporters will begin to realize they've been lied to now that a jury has found Roselli and his wrecking crew guilty. Didn't the jointly-chosen independent judge reach the same conclusions back before the trusteeship?

Posted by Guest on Apr. 11, 2010 @ 12:35 pm

hopefully Sal's supporters will begin to realize they've been lied to now that a jury has found Roselli and his wrecking crew guilty. Didn't the jointly-chosen independent judge reach the same conclusions back before the trusteeship?

Posted by Guest on Apr. 11, 2010 @ 12:35 pm

nuhw rules and seiu know what there doing there bulling people to believe if you vote for nuhw you'll lose you're job are you wont have a contract. all thier doing trying to scare workers and if peolpe belive that seiu is for them then why is it that they dont want you to join nuhw because nuhw is for the people not against them why when an employee is in need of help about their job you can't even get in contact with seiu rep oh but they want employees to vote for them to stay .what is seiu hiding i look at it this way there are two sides of a story and it seem to me what are there hiding to be so focus on nuhw when you should be focuse on workers losing their jobs an giving mangement the upper hand on employees to fire. I feel this way i want a union to fight for my rights not bulling me.Ive been a shop steward for 8 years i've fought for people rights not betray them and seiu bringing people out of town from different places never heard of these folks and they are not figthing for are rights.but their telling dont sign nothing are tell nuhw i have a union and thats seiu. come if they tell you to jump of a bridge you'll live would you do it. come comon sense i want a union to fight for my rights not take my rights away .nuhw is for the people. people wake up before its to late. seiu is not for the people.

Posted by Guest on Apr. 19, 2010 @ 8:05 pm

get your facts straight seiu you file 25 million lost suit and really got 775,000 thousand wow that sound like a big win that your claiming I would be ashame what did you accomplise really nothing .the 26 members of nuhw were clear from what seiu was accusing them of taking money etc.so really tell your members the truth on what you were accuse them of that was not true . and why is andy stern stepping down i want to know the real truth. seiu and their lies. stop seiu bulling workers. watch god is going to bring seiu temple down.thank god for nuhw. I want to have a voice again im voting for nuhw .

Posted by Guest on Apr. 19, 2010 @ 8:22 pm

The jury unanimously found that the ousted leadership of UHW--now magically and "democratically" transformed into the leadership of NUHW (so much for that whole "bottom-up" thing)--cheated the members of UHW by using their dues and the resources of UHW to start their new union while still on the UHW payroll. The jurors did not believe these people when, on the witness stand and under oath, they tried to claim that they did not do what mounds of evidence showed that they did do. In other words, the jury unanimously found them to be liars as well as cheaters.

Oh, and about the amount that the jury awarded NUHW? Despite the endless Spin of Desperation put forth by the NUHW Tea Partiers, on April 12, federal Judge William Alsup issued his "Judgment After Trial" which confirmed that it was indeed the intent of the jury to award the full $1.5 million to UHW, $724,000 to be paid by NUHW itself and the rest to be paid by the individual defendants. No demand for any specific amount was put to the jurors. They probably thought that $1.5 million is a lot of money. It is interesting that NUHW and its supporters apparently don't.

Must be nice to be that well off. Or to be so sure that NUHW dues (if they ever have any actual members--their own LM-2 says they currently have none) can safely be spent on paying legal costs and judgments and not, you know, saved for things like contract negotiation and strike funds.

Posted by Guest workingjustice on Apr. 26, 2010 @ 12:08 pm

Meant to say "the amount that the jury awarded UHW", not "NUHW". Obviously.

Posted by Guest workingjustice on Apr. 26, 2010 @ 12:12 pm

you are a kool-aid drinker.
no matter the amount the point is sally rosselli cheated, stole, and lied. thats why he was found guilty, guilty, guilty.
do you understand the words coming from my mouth?

when you sue someone you make a long list just incase.

Posted by Lol on Jun. 17, 2010 @ 12:37 am