80 billionaires -- and California's broke?

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(67)
Hollywood moguls aren't going anywhere

Jerry Brown's message to educators was framed as bleak -- but as I pointed out, there were some bright spots. At least the new gov mentioned that this is a rich state that ought to be able to afford education. Robert Cruickshank at Calitics has a nice post on the point:

A tax increase of about $20 billion would secure our public services for years to come with a very tiny impact on our economic activity. Surely 1% of our GDP can be harnessed to fund the services that we must have for broadly shared prosperity in this state.

Let me take it a step further. I just went through the Forbes 400 list of the richest Americans and started counting, and guess what? A full 80 of the 400 live in California. That's one out of every five billionaires in America, living right here in a state that can't afford to educate its kids.

Then I took out my calculator and added up a long row of numbers and got a big one: The total net worth of the billionaires in California is $231.8 billion. Ten percent of that wipes out the budget deficit. And that doesn't even count the folks worth $900 million or less; they didn't make the list.

Folks: This is a very, very rich state. A very modest tax increase on a very tiny number of people could solve our budget problems not just today but into the foreseeable future.

This is the message Brown needs to deliver to the people of the state -- and if the antitax people (or my trolls) want to argue that all the rich people would leave if we taxed them just a little bit, let me say: That's ridiculous. David Geffen is going to move out of Malibu because he has to pay a teeny bit more of his income, money he won't miss, in taxes? Ain't happening.

That's it, Jerry. That's your answer. Now get to work.

Comments

How many of those could and would easily move their domicile to, say, Nevada if we tried to tax them punitively? Wealth is highly mobile.

Exactly how do you tax 10% of their wealth? With a special wealth tax, that the Assembly would have to craft? Think the voters would go for that, knowing that that billion threshold would gradually hit them (when it was started, income tax only affacted the very rich too - look at it now)?

No need to play Scrooge this Christmas, Tim. How about dropping the class warfare rhetoric for the holiday season? And then make a new new year resolution to end the politics of envy?

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2010 @ 3:47 pm

will eventually hit them?

Better trolls, please.

Posted by hermann on Dec. 15, 2010 @ 11:21 pm

But give it time and you have more than 500 dollars in you bank account the government will want some of it.

Better calling "troll" trolls please.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 12:43 am

Expropriate the expropriators!

Posted by Guest on Dec. 30, 2010 @ 2:59 pm

The expropriators are expropriated!

Posted by marcos on Jan. 13, 2011 @ 10:11 am

Yes, what exactly is so wrong with a special wealth tax? What exactly is the big deal about saying "if you're worth more than X, hand over Y?" Why is anyone without a billion dollars even remotely bothered by that?

As for the average joe "gradually" hitting a billion dollars..... i won't even address it except to say that a few leisurely strolls among the commoners would surely assuage your fears on this account.

Posted by MH for Movoto.com on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 1:34 pm

Let's start with - it's illegal right now.

And the idea of such a tax affecting everyone is that do you really believe CA would stop with a billion?

Next year they'd be back with 100 million, then 10 million, then a million, then everything. The french already did this.

Wealth can be moved at the click of a mouse. Good luck trying to confiscate it.

Posted by Tom on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 2:43 pm

A "special wealth tax" is a symptom - not a solution. The whole idea that taxes target specific segments of society is insane. The idea that, quite literally, a couple of dollars in applicable deductions can change my tax bracket is completely asinine. Stop using taxes to control folks behaviors. Flat percentages are the way to go. If I always bay N% of my income in taxes, I'm still motivated to increase my own personal net earnings, because that goes right into my pocket. No playing games with rows on tax tables.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 6:21 pm

Review:

If there's a 10% tax bracket up to $20,000 and a 20% tax bracket above it,

A person making $20,000 pays $2000 (10%)
A person making $20,100 pays $2020 (10% of $20,000, and 20% of the additional$100)
A person making $40,000 pays $6000 (10% of $20,000 and 20% of $20,000)

Yes, a couple of dollars can change your tax bracket, which will change the amount of money you pay in taxes... by a couple of dollars.

Posted by Al on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 4:00 pm

Ever heard of the fourteenth Amendment to the US Constitution. It requires states and the central government to treat everyone the same under the law.

That translates to 'you cannot classify groups of people for special treatment under the law by any level of government and claim it is legal'.

The entire progressive tax system and its influences over individual behavior needs to disappear.

And here is a little known fact: with all the deductions, credits and set-a-sides the so-called rich can take, they wind up sending only about 15% of their annual income to government. I am in a 25% tax bracket and I pay out around 12% of it in income taxes due to contorting my lifestyle to the man's requirements.

If we had a Fair and Flat Tax of 15%, a millionaire would pay $150,000 in income taxes for every million earned. Someone making $50K would pay $7500.00 federal income taxes.

Let's see the rich guy who makes $15M in big oil would pay $2,250,000.00 and the family that makes $30,000.00 would pay $450.00.

$2,250,000.00 vs. $4500.00: Every liberal's dream come true.

Arguments?

Posted by Mover on Mar. 08, 2011 @ 1:28 pm

Reverse envy (the idea that the top 1% should be protected from liability as if they were endangered species in a game reserve) is your problem and it's worse. It costs everyone else a fortune.

"Billion threshold would gradually hit them"? Like, a wealth tax's basement would descend to people with, say, NO WEALTH (like yourself). Uhh....

Sorry, Sir Suck-Up, but said wealthy, under the onerous burden of the highest sales taxes in America, never leave. Nor do they seem to traipse to Reno so save 8.25%, as any cursory check of high end retail in SF would attest to.

Why would they leave--they get their boots and butts cleaned for free by people like you--bon apetit!

Posted by Matty on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 9:45 am

The demo trolls! Oh just "take" it from them, they wont miss it. Take Take Take

Pilfer pilfer pilfer. To pay for their little "votealitos" May demosocialist trolls burn in bloody hell!!!

Posted by Jeffery on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 1:13 pm

And the progressives insist that "the rich" won't just up and move to another state.

Guest is right.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 15, 2010 @ 4:12 pm

Yes, it's a simplistic post, but the fundamental point is well worth thinking about, as opposed to these comments, honestly.

It's easy to speculate that the super-rich would move to another state to avoid taxation, but where's the evidence? Already, Sacramento takes more than 10% of everything they earn over $1 million, whereas Nevada would take nothing. So why do they still live here? If all people were considering to decide where to live were thrift, no one would settle in cities with such high cost of living in the first place. People very readily pay a premium to live in premium locations. Also, some people amass great wealth because of how well their home economies have supported their endeavors, and so have business as well as personal reasons to stay.

Not to mention that to the very super-rich on whom this post speculates, an increase in the top marginal rate has amost no impact on their actual lifestyle. Yes, it would be ludicrous and weird and scary for California to somehow seize 10% of billionaires' total assets, but it would not be unprecedented to raise the income tax to, say 50% of annual income *over* $1 million for the sake of keeping California from defaulting, and the impact of that could not honestly be called any kind of lifestyle hardship (unlike the hardship we all may face if our state goes bankrupt and ceases to function).

People tend to have a stupidly one-inch-thick view of social services that stops at "I pay so much in taxes, and what has the state done *directly* for me?" The truth is that in addition to providing safety-net insurance that any one of us could need unexpectedly, like natural disaster relief, the state is the underlying support scaffolding on which a thriving economy (and society) is built, basically by providing a healthy, educated work force, maintaining safety and infrastructure, and keeping the powerful from screwing over the weak so hard they revolt. Too many of the wealthy forget that they could never have attained (or maintained) that wealth if the economic base hadn't been functioning.

As for voters suspecting gradual, slippery-slope increases of any proposed billionaire tax, well... silly voters may suspect whatever they wish, but smart ones will recall that since WWII we've seen the top marginal income tax rate do almost nothing but fall (from 94% pretty steadily to 35%). The comparison you make with the very birth of the income tax system in 1910s is far less relevant than looking at the longer historical trend of... well, basically all the other decades since then.

The real difficulty is how hard we made it to increase taxes in California (and how easy we made it to change the state's constitution), given that voters naturally demand all sorts of spending without having to pay for it.

Posted by le_sacre on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 1:12 am

While forgetting all the things the state and city waste money on and forgetting the terrible priorities.

Sure, some day I may need some emergency services in case of disaster or I become unemployed, I would like to get those things after paying into the system for decades. Sadly the truth of the situation is that all that money will have been burned through on idiocy long before I will likely ever see any of it.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 10:06 am

Wow, you sure ignored a whole lot of what I said in your reply. As for your point, it's a common misconception. Sure, waste is bad (as are "bad priorities," depending on your definitions of course). But outright waste composes a pretty small fraction of government budgets (outside the national department of defense). It's sort of like how Americans think foreign aid is a quarter of the federal budget, or that Social Security will be broke within ten years, or that getting rid of earmarks will erase the deficit, or even that recession is the proper time to try to reduce the deficit--all incredibly false.

The long-term solvency of government is dependent, far more than anything else, on a healthy economy. Well, OK, it also depends on not starting two wars in the Middle East, but that's not California's fault. If California survives through the recession, which it will do through unemployment benefits, infrastructure and other spending, then once the economy is growing strongly again we will be all right (and that's when you want to pay down the debt, not before).

Meanwhile, if you find where some of that waste is, write to Jerry Brown about it! And if you think government officials are such idiots, run for office!

Posted by le_sacre on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 11:01 am

I agree one of the two wars was ridiculous, and there are lots of people who survive on crazy ideas that they hold even when proven ridiculous.

For example people who think jobs and capital don't move to places with lower costs, for example you. The state's quasi government entity state fund has been moving people to Pleasanton for years because its cheaper there, if the state does that, what makes you think others don't?

I said waste and priorities, I doubt that Brown will try and get the regents to give all the ethnic studies departments the boot. I doubt that Brown will address the entitlement to state services by non citizens. He may address the ridiculous anti stoner laws some but nothing will come of it. So we will be saddled with more and more prisons and prisoners. Three strikes sounds good but it isn't going to be reformed. The war on drugs is a fail, the war on the tax payer is going strong.

You seem to have the uni-directional view on things, the state (and many cities) waste all kinds of money on feting special interests. Politicians on both sides take orders from the prison guard unions or the SEIU, they create endless commissions for every sub group, while 95% of the people in these sub groups could care less.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 11:46 am

You're ignoring my point, though, when you insist that the state wastes "all kinds of money..." How much, exactly? How much as a fraction of revenue, as a fraction of total spending? I'm not going to argue with you that a lot of wasteful spending needs to be reevaluated and cut, but your intuition that this will solve the budget crisis is simply incorrect. The one area you mention that strikes me as something that would actually appreciably impact the state budget (prisons) is still only 6.8% of total spending, and how much of that could you realistically cut?

(By the way, why single out ethnic studies? Your point would seem to address all the abstract humanities disciplines equally. I can make arguments for why my buddy should be paid by California to study ancient Chinese poetry, but it sounds like you'd disagree.)

As for people moving, again, where's the evidence? The business lobbyists all said the Healthy San Francisco program would kill business in the city, and that didn't happen. Our neighboring state of Nevada has literally no income tax--why hasn't everyone already moved there? I'm not saying that *no one* will move for tax reasons; I'm saying that as a whole, the number of people who will move is not a realistic concern for state revenue unless we adopt something unprecedentedly draconian like a 99% top marginal rate.

People who rail against the government in an unconstructive way often obsess about anecdotes and context-free talking points, while missing the big picture (sorta like Republican congressional candidates who say their #1 priority is cutting spending and then can't identify a single thing they'd cut that would be more than 1% of the deficit). If you can rail against the government in a constructive way, offering a specific plan to balance the budget without increasing unemployment even further, then by all means, do so!

Posted by le_sacre on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 12:38 pm

You ignored my priorities point and then complain that I'm ignoring your salient points?

That is the nature of these on-line type discussion groups.

You also want to incrementally raise taxes and fees it seems, but don't seem to think incrementally cutting stupid priorities is good? I posted a few off the top of my head and then you complain that it won't solve the entire problem?

Self awareness is a rough one eh?

If you are interested in Chinese poetry, or the history of your race or culture, pick up a book. Why support entire disciplines where the only wrong answer is not agreeing with the teacher? I also find it interesting that the uni-mind of ethnic-studies insist that everyone else but them is brainwashed by the; media, the republicans, the establishment, AM radio shouters, etc... An intellectual ghetto.

I am actually quite a fan of some soft science, for example I love Seymoure Martin Lipsett and Richard Hofstadter, people without a goofy position looking for a rationalization. Unlike say the Cato institute types or SF progressives, as examples.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

I'm having trouble following you, I guess. What I tried to press you on is specifics! If we're having a discussion about *how to solve the budget crisis in California*, then saying, in general, that state government's priorities are bad, is not constructive. You have to provide some specifics and some numbers in order to make any claim that you can solve the fiscal nightmare by "adjusting priorities."

You have also completely missed the distinction between your incremental cutting approach (in which you have not identified any substantial, plausible cuts that would significantly impact the budget) and the revenue approach we're talking about. Here's a super-simplified example:

Census estimate is that there are 767,989 households in California with more than $200,000 annual income. I couldn't easily find the number for the super-super rich, but $200k per year is still pretty damn rich. I also couldn't easily find what the average actual income is for these people, but based on general US stats, it's definitely higher than $300,000, so for simplicity's sake let's say we have 768,000 households making $300k each a year. A hefty marginal tax increase, say 10% extra off income over $200,000, would mean these households would on average pay $10,000 more in taxes per year--and here's where I engage in "class warfare," because honestly, if your salary is that high, you shouldn't miss it--would bring in $7.68 billion in annual revenue.

Now I understand California's deficit is on the order of $20 billion, and this particular tax increase wouldn't solve it at a stroke, but it's a big chunk, much bigger than anything you have proposed with any specificity (it's not an acceptable proposal to just say, "Fix the priorities and spend $20 billion less!").

What if we were to assume a still conservative but more realistic figure for the average income of this group, like $400,000? We've just doubled their share of income over our hypothetical margin, they're still not hurting much because the marginal utility of $20,000 to the very rich is quite low, and we've brought in $15 billion more revenue to the state, nearly solving the budget crisis (which was brought on in the first place more by the economic downturn than by out-of-control spending).

Of course the super rich would howl, and they'd have every right to (despite the fact that historically, their taxes have usually been higher than this until Reagan). The point of the exercise is to show that in terms of numbers, we could easily propose a tax increase on the super rich that would erase the entire deficit, whereas you have not managed to outline a single specific, plausible spending cut that's more than a drop in the bucket.

If you want to check how many dollars California spends on ethnic studies and get back to me, that's cool. I'm guessing it would take a lot of ethnic studies departments to add up to $20 billion.

Posted by le_sacre on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 3:18 pm

I'll just repost this part.

"I posted a few off the top of my head and then you complain that it won't solve the entire problem?"

Posted by matlock on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 3:53 pm

If you read more carefully, you'll find what we've established is that (unless you have some new, more specific proposal to share, like "Shut down the UC system entirely and let all the prisoners out!") it's not just that your approach *won't* solve the entire problem, it's that your approach *can't* solve the entire problem. Unlike the approach I outlined, which can. It's as if you're ignoring the difference between millions and billions here.

In some other conversation, perhaps about the generally frustrating nature of representative democracy, this unconstructive criticism might fit right in. But in a conversation about solving the budget crisis of California, it really doesn't contribute anything to call elected officials idiots *without proposing anything smarter* yourself. That's just venting. In fact, by reinforcing empty talking points, if anything you're actively pushing real solutions farther away.

Because tone doesn't translate well over the internet, I want to emphasize I don't think *you* are an idiot. I just mean that you're complaining in a way that helps no one by not offering even a semblance of a viable alternative.

Posted by le_sacre on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 4:54 pm

At this point you remind me of this quote for some reason.

"If you tell me hippies and yippies are going to be able to do the
job of helping America, I'll tell you this: They can't run a bus;
they can't serve in a government office; they can't run a lathe in
a factory. All they can do is lay down in the park and sleep or kick
policemen." -- September 2, 1968 - Spiro Agnew

Posted by matlock on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 6:44 pm

Sacre offers paragraph after paragraph of statistics and the best you can do is a 40 year old quote from a felon that bears no impact whatsoever on the debate.

Where's the waste? Where's the evidence that higher taxes will drive anyone out of anywhere? Ethnic studies?

What a pathetic clown.

Posted by Matty on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 10:04 pm

You are illiterate, like Sacre. The Sacre person offers things that appeal to your sensibilities, to the real world that person offers the revealed knowledge of Jerry Falwell, some people like the revealed knowledge of Jerry Falwell, you included.. Which means nothing.

Thanks for playing. Your entitlement is in the mail. It will show up behind your ethnic studies degree.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 3:11 am

Could not have expressed this any clearer, thank you le-sacre.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 12:38 pm

and in fact many have done. You don't need to be in CA to do business here. So why allow the rest of your wealth to be subject to confiscatory whim?

Again, taxing wealth is very different from taxing income. If you have a billion, you can probably make a several million a year just in interest. Taxing that interest income is one thing, but the State just seizing your wealth is scary.

And even if CA did do that, you and I know they'll be back with the begging bowl a year or two later, when it's all been wasted, and then they will want 10% of everything over 10 million, or a million, and then everything. Once the tax juggernaught starts, it never ends. Which is why the voters have made it so hard to raise taxes - because the pols have shown that they cannot be trusted to rein in spending if there is a trough to gorge at.

Anyway, it's moot, as a wealth tax would be illegal right now. Property tax is as close as it gets, and you saw in 1979 what the voters thought of that.

Posted by Tom on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 9:28 am

What this post doesn't note is that all this wealth is all paper. It's not as if they have this sitting in cash in at Wells Fargo.

Nice incorrect use of statistics to make a flawed point. But then we expect that from the SFBG.

Why do progressives insist that a monopoly (i.e. government) provide all services? I thought you all said that monopolies are bad.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 9:40 am

And then what do you do the next year? Take another 10%? How long does that logic go for?

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 10:00 am

No such thing as a one time tax!

Posted by Guest on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 1:22 am

Maybe the author should ask himself why state spending has increased greater than the rates of inflation and population growth?? The state does not deserve ONE NICKEL more than to cover inflation and population growth.

Posted by AGuest on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 12:24 pm

I would like to know how many people in CA have over $100M or $500M. any info on that.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 1:25 pm

It's tough to know. The billionaires are easy because Forbes and Fortune produce lists.

But since wealth isn't taxed, there are no annual statements made like there are with income.

And we have even less idea how much wealth CA residents have that is overseas.

But one thing is sure - we'd have a lot less of these wealthy people here if we start confiscating their wealth, particularly if other States do not. The wealthy can afford advisors who are very good at making wealth vanish, when it needs to.

Posted by Tom on Dec. 16, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

I'm not the one who declared class warfare, Matlock. that was Ronald Reagan and a generation of Republicans (and Democrats) who have, through consistent public policy, shifted the wealth upward, screwed the middle class and let the poor get much, much poorer. Those guys drew first blood; I'm just fighting back.

And as for the rich moving out of California ... are you kidding? Sergey Brin is going to move to Nevada or North Dakota to avoid taxes? Not a chance. Much more likely that we're going to lose jobs and employers (and skilled workers) because we've allowed our education system and public infrastructure to deteriorate through low taxes.

Posted by tim redmond on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 12:52 pm

I never understand the posts claiming that California has low taxes. I get it that the SFBG is an advocate for high taxes, but claiming they aren't already high is belied by the facts. This analysis, for example, indicates that we have some of the highest taxes in the nation compared to other states: http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/15.html

"Estimated at 10.5% of income, California's state/local tax burden percentage stands at 6th highest nationally."

"With seven brackets and a top rate of 10.55 percent for those earning over $1,000,000. California's individual income tax has the third-highest rate and one of the most highly progressive structures in the nation. In 2008, California's state-level individual income tax collections were $1,531 per person, which ranked 4th highest nationally."

"California levies an 8.25% general sales or use tax on consumers, which is the highest in the nation and above the national median of 5.85%."

"Despite Proposition 13, California ranks in the middle of the pack when the states are ranked on combined state/local property tax collections."

Posted by The Commish on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 2:54 pm

It never sinks in.

I'm guessing that when they Guardian types say we have low taxes they are comparing us to western Europe.

The Thatcher tax cuts brought some of the economic refugees back, like the Rolling Stones, many actors like Michael Caine...

Posted by matlock on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 8:30 pm

The natural forces of capitalism are at work all around you.

You advocate for policies that drive down wages and help break unions and then you complain? Throw open the borders, let in people who are poor and drive down wages and you complain that there is a wealth gap? Strange.

I'm all for spending on infrastructure and the schools, thats not a priority with the democrats you supplicate your paper to. I find it so odd that you "progressives" obsess over the UC regents when you should be throwing rocks and rioting at the offices of Leno and Ammiano.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 2:13 pm

Immigrants aren't driving down wages. The minimum wage hasn't remotely kept pace with inflation. Corporate profits and executive pay have risen while the working class makes less. These are policy decisions; the invisible hand of Adam Smith has nothing to do with it.

Posted by tim on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 4:04 pm
wow

I somewhat amazed at that response. It's such a denial of the most basic understandings of economics that I am amazed.

In 1979 testimony to Congress, Chavez complained, "... when the farm workers strike and their strike is successful, the employers go to Mexico and have unlimited, unrestricted use of illegal alien strikebreakers to break the strike. And, for over 30 years, the Immigration and Naturalization Service has looked the other way and assisted in the strikebreaking. I do not remember one single instance in 30 years where the Immigration service has removed strikebreakers. ... The employers use professional smugglers to recruit and transport human contraband across the Mexican border for the specific act of strikebreaking..."

Posted by matlock on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 1:16 am

CA is 46th in property taxes. That is the only reason the sales tax is as high as it is.

And above and beyond that, "The Tax Foundation" is a right wing think tank. Look at its principals--these are Fox News' analysts on tax issues. Not an independent or non-partisan group in the least--California's actual tax burden per capita is at a 40 year low.

And "The Rolling Stones returned to England after Thatcher"? Of the remaining members, 3 of them make their primary residence the Caribbean, Manhattan and Weston, Connecticut, the 4th never left in the first place.

Jesus Christ, this website has the lamest crew of brown nosing trolls.

Posted by Matty on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 11:59 pm

How old are you?

When the tax rates went down many of the tax refuges from England moved back, there were articles in the paper about them moving back, it happened over a few years, people may have moved some place in the intervening thirty years.

After reading your posts it cracks me that you complain about FOX news bias.

do a search for, first thing that comes up.

english tax refuges rolling stones

"The 1970s was the decade of big flares, oversized collars and lumpish motors. They also became the decade when "non-domiciled" meant what it said. To pay less tax, some of Britain's richest upped sticks for less fiscally demanding surroundings.

As Britain endured economic decline and a balance of payments crisis, the shadow Chancellor, Denis Healey, may never have actually promised to tax the rich until the "pips squeak" in 1972 but a year later he did guarantee there would be "howls of anguish".
The drummer Dave Clark, whose eponymous five-piece led the charge of the British musical invasion of 1960s America was first to flee. Others followed.

The revelation of the ruinous state of the Rolling Stones' finances in the early 1970s presaged not only a move to France but perhaps their finest work: Exile on Main Street.

Michael Caine spent eight years as a tax exile and the former James Bond, Roger Moore, opted for Monaco, a des res that continues to appeal to high earners, among them the fashion tycoon Sir Philip Green, the ex-Beatle Ringo Starr and racing drivers Lewis Hamilton and David Coulthard.

Switzerland, tax haven of the drummer Phil Collins, remains an equally popular redoubt.

"People who are UK based have always been able to get out of tax by simply leaving the country. You will find pop stars and film stars throughout the system," explained Mike Warburton, the senior tax partner at Grant Thornton.

"But what reversed the so-called brain drain of the late Seventies was the arrival of the Thatcher government in 1979," he said.

Today, more than 10 years after the election of Tony Blair, tax paid on income and investment earnings is capped at 40 per cent, the non-doms have arrived in force and the City has surfed the stock market wave. But then Alistair Darling intervened. Forty years after Mr Healey, a 1970s debate about tax is reignited. Someone should ask DCI Gene Hunt for his views.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 1:07 am

Why did you post this?
It says nothing to support your earlier statement that:

"The Thatcher tax cuts brought some of the economic refugees back, like the Rolling Stones, many actors like Michael Caine..."
-matlock on Dec. 17, 2010 @ 8:30 pm

Posted by Guest on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 11:36 am

Many of the tax refuges from the tax hikes in England never returned.

I was wrong, some of the stones never came back after taxes went down again.

The over all statement was about people leave areas because of tax hikes, which dogma tell you does not happen. One wonders if you are the same guy complaining that right wingers believe things just for the sake of believing it, because it sounds good and fits the agenda?

In a post about how people leave because of tax hikes, you complain that people I said left and came back, didn't come back.

I was wrong, they didn't come back, the tax hikes drove them and many others away, some didn't come back, making the tax tax tax case worse.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 3:54 pm

Tax Foundation is non-partisan. Read some of its articles. It's main point of advocacy is to simplify the tax code and make it more transparent. And it was hardly glowing about the Obama tax cut that just passed.

Where do you get your figures? CA 46th in property taxes and "actual tax burden per capita is at a 40 year low"? Looks like you're just making stuff up.

Posted by Patrick on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 9:35 am

The Tax Foundation was organized on December 5, 1937 in New York City by Alfred P. Sloan, Jr., Chairman of the General Motors Corporation; Donaldson Brown, GM Financial Vice President; William S. Farish, President of Standard Oil Company of New Jersey; and Lewis H. Brown, President of Johns-Manville Corporation, who later became the first Chairman of the Board of the Foundation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Foundation

Currently The Tax Foundation is run by Eli Lilly and Company and Pepsico among others:

Tax Foundation Board of Directors:

David P. Lewis (Chairman)
Vice President - Global Taxes;
Chief Tax Executive & Assistant Treasurer
Eli Lilly and Company

James W. Lintott (Treasurer)
Chairman
Sterling Foundation Management LLC

The Honorable Bill Archer
Senior Policy Analyst
PriceWaterhouseCoopers LLP

Douglas Holtz-Eakin
President
DHE Consulting, LLC

Sarah McGill
Senior Vice President, Tax Planning
PepsiCo, Inc.

Pamela F. Olson
Partner Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP
http://www.taxfoundation.org/about/show/1747.html

Posted by Guest on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 11:54 am
TF

What aspect of your post demonstrates that the Tax Foundation is partisan -- the fact that its board members actually work for private businesses? They are all tax professionals, economists, and one tax lawyer.

Just because the board doesn't include Gabriel Haaland, the head of the SF Tenants' Union, a union organizer, and/or a SFBG editor doesn't turn something into a partisan organization.

Posted by Patrick on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 2:09 pm

The web page ranks all the states so there are some high ones and some low ones, because thats how rankings work. I wonders if an operation based in Washington DC would skew the statistics for California against all the other states for some particular reason? Likely no.

Just shouting out it has right wing bias is all that is needed for some.

Even if they are right wingers, what would the reason be to skew California in the rankings of all the states?

I listened to some of the candidate interviews with the Guardian some months ago and one of the editors went into hysterics with I think Scott Wiener, because he was using biased studies concerning prop B, not the approved union studies.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 4:09 pm

So what if the information you rely on is provided by Fox News analysts and employees of far right wing Republican politicians?
Well, you're information is biased and unreliable.
That is "what".

Posted by Guest on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 6:09 pm

They built a whole web page to rank states, to show that California is a high tax state, just to anger up you true believers?

Posted by matlock on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 7:33 pm

Douglas Holtz-Eakin

Economic adviser to John McCain
In 2007, Holtz-Eakin was hired as chief economic policy adviser to U.S. Senator John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. Through the campaign and coincident 2008 economic crisis, he remained in the media spotlight on the candidate's proposals for the economy and health care. Holtz-Eakin drew particular attention when he claimed that, as a U.S. Senator on the Commerce Committee, McCain "helped create" the BlackBerry wireless device.
President of Conservative Think Tank

In early 2010, Holtz-Eakin became president of American Action Forum,a Conservative think tank. Since joining American Action Forum, Holtz-Eakin has appeared on Fox News to argue against a 2010 health care bill, as well as writing a similarly-worded Op-Ed for the New York Times.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell appointed Holtz-Eakin to the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission in 2009.

From August 1989 to July 1990, Holtz-Eakin served as a Senior Staff Economist on President George H.W. Bush's Council of Economic Advisers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Holtz-Eakin

Posted by Guest on Dec. 18, 2010 @ 5:59 pm

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