Warren Hellman: The rich are undertaxed

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I couldn't reach financier Warren Hellman before I wrote my column in this week's paper talking about the employee pension discussions. But he called me yesterday (Feb. 16) after he'd seen it, and I expected he'd give me some shit.

Wrong.

In fact, Hellman had only one problem with my analysis: "Your article is didn't go far enough." Turns out he thinks I was a bit too easy on the billionaires.

"When you compare upper-echelon tax rates [in America] to any developed country in the world," Hellman said, "the rich pay very low taxes here. You're article is exactly correct -- the wealthy are undertaxed." He told me that he's stopped trying to amass more personal wealth ("it's all going into a foundation") because he realizes that he couldn't possibly spend all the money he has "and all that happens if you leave it all to the next generation is that you spoil your kids." 

Quite a statement coming from one of the city's richest and most influential business leaders.

Of course, putting all the money in a foundation isn't the only answer.   The only way to address the wealth gap, and the decline in social, education and infrastructure spending, to for the government to get more involved -- and that means collecting more tax money from the people who can afford to pay it. Hellman told me that he's not about to accept a reduction in his lifestyle -- but we both agreed that he doesn't have to. He could pay a lot more in taxes and still be really, really rich.

So we talked about my proposal, which goes like this:

I've got a suggestion for the pension reform negotiators. Why not talk a little about parity.

 Yes, pensions have to be fixed; let's start at the top. Maybe nobody should have a pension of more than $100,000 a year; certainly, a former police chief shouldn't get $250,000 a year for life. Maybe the highest-paid city employees should have to pay more into the pension system to protect the pensions of the people who make less. I could easily support progressive pension reform that would save the city money.

 I just think tax reform should also be part of the equation.

 Hellman wants $300 million in pension savings? Good -- how about pairing it with $300 million in new taxes on the wealthy? How about big business and rich people give up something this time around, instead of all of the cuts falling on public employees and poor San Franciscans?

And Hellman, to his credit, didn't disagree with the concept. His problem he said, was with the politics. "Taxes are the third rail of politics," he said. "I've gotten my head handed to me three times now when I've supported tax increases." 

But I still think there's a way to move forward here. The city employee unions agree to some sort of pension reform, which starts with a pension cap and higher payments from higher earners (not with what amounts to a pay cut for lower-wage employees who have already taken pay cuts in the past few years). Then Hellman, Mayor Ed Lee and Sup. Sean Elsbernd agree to support a progressive tax measure that would bring in badly needed revenue for public services and education.

It's possible that the tax measure would have to wait until Nov. 2012, when it would only require a 50 percent vote. Maybe both measures go on that ballot. And Hellman, Elsbernd and Lee use their clout with downtown to push the Chamber of Commerce and the Commitee on JOBS to at least stay neutral and cut off any big-money campaign against the tax measure. Then they all agree to help raise money and campaign to pass it. And labor agrees to work for both measures.

Hellman said he feared that "one would kill the other" and both measures might fail. But I believe the people of San Francisco are willing to support new taxes -- progressive new taxes -- if they don't think the money's going to waste. And pairing pension refrom with new taxes sends a strong message: We're all sharing the pain. Particularly if Hellman, Elsbernd and Lee can sell the tax package part of the deal to the business community.

It's worth a try. Because otherwise, we're going to have another Prop. B battle, both sides are going to spend a ton of money, and nobody's going to walk away happy.

"It's worth thinking about," Hellman told me. I hope so.

Comments

is all well and good, but have you ever stopped to compute how much revenue would be collected? Almost every study I've seen says that even quite hefty taxes on billionaires don't raise that much because there quite simply aren't enough of them.

So even leaving aside the other counter-arguments (they'd hire smarter accountants, leave the State etc.) you're still left having to tax the middle classes more simply because there are millions of them.

And bear in mind that with pensions, we're talking city and county here, not State. The city has very limited ways of taxing income, and even less ways of taxing wealth.

Voters who work in the private sector and get a worse deal then their public sector brethren aren't going to be too keen on paying more taxes to preserve those good deals.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 12:31 pm
50%

Why would a ballot measure regarding taxes only require a 50% vote in Nov. 2012? I'm not familiar with that issue.

Posted by The Commish on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 12:32 pm

Moment of wonk: Under Prop 13/218, new general taxes, those which are not dedicated or special taxes, can pass with 50%+1 in a year when the local legislative body is also up for election which is even years in San Francisco.

All special taxes require 2/3 vote as do general taxes in years when the local legislative body is not up for election.

-marc

Posted by marcos on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 1:23 pm

In order to solve the pension problem, we need to address the drivers for rising pension costs. Those drivers are high salaries and the cost of paying pensions based on those high salaries.

First, cap city pay at $100K except for classroom teachers and doctors and nurses that see patients.

Second, cap pensions at $50,000 or 110% of median pension. If you can't make it on $50,000 + $20,000 social security, then that is not a problem that the taxpayers of San Francisco need to solve.

Do this all retroactively applied to current pensioners. It is not fair to have current city employees paying into a system to transfer resources to current retirees who did not pay in themselves.

The City might need to get state law amended to create a special kind of bankruptcy that would a bankruptcy court to alter contracts on pensions only, not touch anything related to the City's credit rating, where total benefits were capped at that $50,000/110% median number.

That's how we solve this problem by bringing progressive values to bear.

-marc

Posted by marcos on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 12:36 pm

Your readers are apparently serious about addressing the City's financial crisis.

Posted by Flowers on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 1:41 pm

We are lucky to live in a city where our resident billionaire is Warren Hellman and not, let's say, Donald Trump. Hellman has given us Hardly Strictly Bluegrass, the best music festival under the sun. He's supported other arts organizations, and he's personable and amiable. And he recognizes, like Buffet, Gates and other "enlightened" capitalists, that the wealthy need to do more than their share.

To the guest comment above that says taxing billionaires won't make a difference, the Bush tax rate extension cost us $800 billion. That's something. Even to Warren Hellman!

Posted by Bruce Kaplan on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 1:54 pm

Hey Guest: I've done a lot of work on how much money taxes would bring in, and so have others. On a national level, a 10 percent wealth tax on just the very rich would bring in about half a trillion dollars. Even a modest increase in the federal income tax on high earners would bring in hundreds of billions (the Bush tax cut on the rich alone costs $40 billion a year). When I talk about taxing the billionaires, I'm being a bit metaphorical; clearly, you wouldn't start any tax at that level. Poor Donald Trump, who's only worth a few hundred million at this point, would miss the cut. A fair income tax increase would probably start at around $250,000 and would include a change in the way capital gains are taxed. A San Francisco city income tax (and yes, we could get away with it, see Weekes v. Oakland, Cal. Sup. Ct. 1978) would be much smaller and would probably start at around $50,000 (in other words, people earning less than that would pay no city tax at all). Done right, with proper progressive scales, it could bring in $50 million to $100 million a year, maybe more. And since everyone who paid the tax could deduct it from state and federal income taxes, much of the money would actually come from Sacto and Washington.

Posted by tim redmond on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 2:00 pm

...You expect City residents in a private sector recession to vote for (whether 50% or 66% vote required) and approve an addtional income tax on themselves to further subsidize the benefits of the City's public employees who enjoy pension and health benefits most City residents can only dream about and most of whom don't live in San Francisco??

Lunacy. Again - let us know when you are serious.

Posted by Flowers on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 2:18 pm

So it's hard to see of what a "progressive taxation measure" exists.

Posted by Lucretia Snapples on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 2:02 pm

I think you mean "consists," Lucretia, and I think I've explained this already numerous times. A progressive local tax program would tax large businesses at a higher rate than small businesses (probably by replacing the payroll tax with a gross receipts and commercial rent tax), would tax wealthy individuals more than lower-income individuals (income taxes instead of sales taxes, taxes on expensive cars instead of Muni fare hikes, higher taxes on real-estate transfers, higher development fees (to pay for Muni, schools, etc.). It's not rocket science.

Posted by tim redmond on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 2:28 pm

In all the discussions surrounding pensions, I hope that everyone understands that even a $50k annual pension paid at age 62 with cost of living increases AND healthcare has a present value of approximately $1M (depending upon gender, health issues, etc). Public safety pensions and healthcare for the same amount paid at age 50 is well over $1M.

Saving the same $1M with the attendant market risks and taxes is not an easy task and to ask those in private industry to pay more to subsidize public employees is not something many people will relish.

Posted by Guest666 on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 4:02 pm

That is exactly correct. An annuity that pays $50K (or saving enough in one's 401(k) to pay out $50K a year) requires a $1 million plus fund at around age 60.

Posted by The Commish on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 9:07 pm

Too many people don't understand this and it is why the City's unfunded liabilities are massive and bankruptcy may be inevitable regardless of reforms.

Just think of all the $100,000 plus pensions. The City has 1,000 retirees at this level now and over 10,000 employees currently earning over $100,000 - what a disaster.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 10:13 pm

It's a brilliant proposal Tim, which would benefit all of us in the long run, whether rich or poor. If the city can generate enough revenue to pay for infrastructure and essential services, it's a win-win situation for both business and ordinary citizens. The best way to go about this is to tax those who can most afford to pay. So, I'm buoyed to hear that Hellman has come out in favor of your plan.

I believe we can make it happen. Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton won election on a platform that included plans to raise taxes on the wealthiest state residents. He has just submitted his proposal for permanent and temporary income tax increases on wealthiest residents to help close an estimated $6.2 billion gap. If Minnesotans can do it, we can do it too!

Posted by Lisa Pelletier on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 6:45 pm

The city already does generate enough money to pay for infrastructure and essential services. But the money is being siphoned away to pay for city employee benefits and salaries. Please read the San Francisco budget documents and follow the money.

Also, this isn't Minnesota.

Posted by The Commish on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 9:58 pm

Commissions and departments that are ridiculous and useless.

Go back to staffing levels of 1980 when we had about the same population, the city would be in the black.

Posted by matlock on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 6:00 pm

It was Willie Sutton who said he robbed banks because "that's where the money is."

The top 1% in America owns 1/3 of the assets. The only reason they don't have 1/3 or more of the income is because most of it is in the form of lower tax rate capital gains and they can time the receipt of income.

The bottom line is that part of the solution to America's severe financial problems is to go where the money is.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 7:33 pm

So now we are in surplus???

The San Francisco Office of Comptroller released its FY 2010-2011 six month budget status report which projects an ending General Fund balance of $89.2 million.

This strength versus the adopted budget is driven predominantly by a modest improvement in the City’s general tax revenues. Property transfer tax is significantly exceeding budgeted levels, driven by voter approval of a rate increase in November 2010 that was not assumed in the budget. Property taxes and business taxes are also projected to exceed budget.

-- San Francisco Office of the Controller FY 2010-2011 six month budget status report

Posted by Guest on Feb. 17, 2011 @ 8:16 pm

TIm, you MUST watch Rachael Maddow talking about what is happening in Wisconsin right now. It is very, very similar to what is happening to unions in SF right now.

GOP goal: bake sales vs. billionaires
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/41655758#41655758

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 11:37 am

Part of Prop B was to modify rules for collective bargaining, just like what is happening right now in Wisconsin.

Rachael Maddow said the the Wisconsin budget is now in surplus and the 140 million in benefits cuts happens to equal the 140 million in tax breaks the governor handed out earlier. Cutting collective bargaining is fallout from the "Citizens United" decision and an extention of the efforts that started against Acorn.

Here is the exact wording for Prop B:

"Proposition B: Shall the City increase employee contributions to the Retirement System for retirement benefits; decrease employer contributions to the Health Service System for health benefits for employees, retirees and their dependents; and change rules for arbitration proceedings about City collective bargaining agreements?"

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 11:45 am

...for Prop B.

"Proposition B: Shall the City increase employee contributions to the Retirement System for retirement benefits; decrease employer contributions to the Health Service System for health benefits for employees, retirees and their dependents; and change rules for arbitration proceedings about City collective bargaining agreements?"

This summary statement (only thing every voter reads) was written by a group of persons appointed by the Mayor and BOS - all unanimously against Prop B- showing you how rigged the system is.

Not only is the paragraph inaccurate (Prop B did not call for the HSS to reduce employer contributions for "retirees") and purposefully omitted the word "pension," but it was intentionally written to be confusing so people not knowing the issue would be inclined to vote no. Who could make sense of the that paragrah? Corruption.

The Wisky thing and Prop B are apples and oranges. Let's say there are 50 items you negotiate in a collective bargaining agreement. My understanding is the Wisky thing says you can now negotiate only 1, wages - whereas, Prop B said you can now negotiate 48 just not the health and pension contribution amount- that would be set. But if you see that as the same thing- fine.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 12:22 pm

As a tenant who has learned over the years as a matter of basic survival to be politically active, I see propositions in favor of tenants rights routinely sail through the most amazing opposition from the Mayor, corporate real estate interests, landlord groups, even two faced supervisors, and then pass a gauntlet of court challenges...I mean --not all the time. I mean EVERY time.

If the clowns who sponsored prop B can't even get the summary statement right there is no hope for them, regardless how many billionaires become involved.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 2:02 pm

Speaking of clowns, the ballot summary statement was written by five hacks appointed by the Mayor and the BOS. Persons submitting a valid petition have nothing to do with writing the summary statement. I guess ignorance is bliss. There is a reason the word "pension" was omitted from the entire ballot summary...

Posted by Guest on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 12:46 am

Speaking of clowns, propositions pass all the time despite the opposition of the Mayor and Supervisors.

At some point it just becomes a matter of basic competence I suppose.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 9:25 am

Rich people crying that they haven't captured the Office of the Comptroller?

Posted by Guest on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 9:31 am

From where I sit, the attempts to modify the collective bargaining process in Prop B look an awful lot like what is happening in Wisconsin right now. Our midwest looks like Egypt because of corrupt hedge funds and billionaires trying to steal public pensions.

As usual, it happens in San Francisco first....

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 2:10 pm

"This is an existential fight for the Democratic Party. This is about whether or not the Democratic Party exists. This is why Republicans want to do this so bad." -- Rachael Maddow

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 2:39 pm

Not only are rich people undertaxed, but according to the financial press most of them belong in jail.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 18, 2011 @ 9:16 pm

Jazz musician's bumper sticker:

PLAY A BANJO ... GO TO JAIL!

Guy leaves his banjo in back seat, locks doors and runs into liquor store, returns within 5 minutes and back car window is broke and there are TWO banjos in his back seat.

(Thanks to the SFWeekly's 'Ask a Mexican')

Excellent discussion, Tim. I like Salomon's solution except for the retroactive part and most frightening post is one that says that without getting retroactive the problem may be without solution.

Go Giants!

h.

Posted by Guest h. brown on Feb. 19, 2011 @ 12:04 pm

Our political leaders have been unable or unwilling to raise taxes to keep up with the rising cost of running things. They have reverted instead, to raising the fees the public pays for everything. This has shifted the financial burden to the working poor. Taxes are implemented on a sliding scale, which we all accept as being fair. Raising fees are not done on a sliding scale and are more likely to rest on the less wealthy. Raising the cost of a parking permit 50% to 98 dollars, has a substantial impact on someone who makes less than that amount per day and to cut out something else to pay it. That increase has a much less detrimental effect on the person making ten times as much, and is also more likely to have a garage and therefore do not incur the cost. Similarly the increase in Muni fares affects the poor far worse than the wealthy. both because they are more likely to ride the bus, and also feel a negative effect from the rising price. The solution is to raise taxes not fees.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 12:44 pm

in a serious way.

Posted by Guest on Feb. 27, 2011 @ 6:52 pm

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