SF supervisors urge city to defy federal immigration holds

Angela Chan (left) congratulates members of the San Francisco Immigrant Rigths Defense Committee after the vote.
Steven T. Jones

The San Francisco Board of Supervisors yesterday (Tues/13) approved a resolution calling for the city to adopt stronger policies for resisting federal efforts to deport undocumented immigrants who live here. It is the latest move to support the city's Sanctuary City status and counter the federal Secure Communities (S-Com) program, a new database that allows the feds to circumvent local policies protecting local immigrants who have been arrested but not convicted of any crimes.

The resolution urges the Sheriff's and Juvenile Probation departments not to honor civil immigration detainer requests from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement until there is a written agreement to have ICE pay for all local costs associated with the incarcerations. The Santa Clara County Board of Supervisors adopted a similar policy in October, a move also being pursued in Chicago, New York City, Washington DC, and other jurisdictions.

“It doesn't make communities safer. In fact, it makes immigrant communities less safe,” Sup. Eric Mar, who authored the resolution, said of S-Com, noting that it makes immigrants less likely to report crimes or cooperate with police. “I urge you to support this message and to follow the lead of jurisdictions like Santa Clara and Chicago, Cook County.”

Sups. David Campos and Jane Kim asked to join Mar and Board President David Chiu as co-sponsors of the measure, which was then approved on an 8-3 vote, with Sups. Sean Elsbernd, Mark Farrell, and Carmen Chu in dissent. Members of the San Francisco Immigrant Right Defense Committee, who had lobbied hard for the resolution and who packed board chambers, erupted in a sustained standing ovation after the vote.

Angela Chan, an attorney with Asian Law Caucus who helped lead the effort, afterward told supporters, “It's because of this group's hard work that we got a lot more votes than we thought we'd get,” noting they only had six solid votes going in. “Thank you, happy holiday, and we have lots more work to do.”

Chan hopes the resolution will give political cover to Ross Mirkarimi – who supported the measure as a supervisor and who takes over as sheriff at the end of the month – to expand policies created this year by Sheriff Michael Hennessey to resist some immigration detainer requests. Mirkarimi hasn't yet returned calls for comment on the issue.

San Francisco has a fraught recent history on how to handle undocumented immigrants accused of crimes. Two years ago, the board adopted a policy of refusing to report them to the feds until they had been convicted of serious crimes, approving the Campos-authored legislation on a veto-proof 8-3 vote, only to have then-Mayor Gavin Newsom refuse to enforce the policy. After that highly charged fight, the creation of the S-Com program allowed the feds to circumvent those restrictions by directly finding out whether local inmates are undocumented, making moot Mayor Ed Lee's agreement to partially implement the Campos legislation.

As we report in this week's paper, this is one of a number of issues related to local control and an overreaching police state where Bay Area communities such as Berkeley, San Francisco, Richmond, and San Jose are trying to push back on the federal government. Sup. Jane Kim is currently working on an ordinance to restrict the participation of San Francisco http://www.sfbg.com/2011/04/26/spies-blue. Advocates say she plans to introduce the measure next month, but Kim told us she's have some difficulty getting sign-off from the City Attorney's Office.


The city can only go so far in resisting Obama's policies without the risk of federal intervention. We've already seen Feds busting CA marijuana clinics. And given the strength of feeling about illegals throughout the nation, we should be very cautious about being seen to support and sustain blatant criminal behavior.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 14, 2011 @ 2:52 pm

It's not a crime to be undocumented. As I've pointed out elsewhere, it's a civil violation. Sorry to inform you, but this is a sanctuary city, not a bastion of bigotry and intolerance.

Posted by Lisa on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 6:38 pm

The only two I know are Irish and Russian!

And it's criminal, sorry. Nobody sues an illegal for damages - they are prosecuted for the crime of being here illegally.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 7:05 pm

Actually Federal Law (per the constitution, not reality) almost never trumps state law. Hence the 9th and 10th amendments to the constitution. Basically only in matters of taxation, interstate commerce and civil rights does federal law trump state. The reality is that the federalists won the US Civil war in 1865 and Federal "Law" trumps state law as a matter of fact. However it is quite illegal per the constitution.

Posted by Creepy Pete on Dec. 23, 2011 @ 10:48 pm

drugs and immigration as well. Essentially, if the Feds implement a law on any given subject, it will over-ride any local law to the contrary.

Likewise the Supremem court can overthrow local laws e.g. the Texas prohibition on sodomy, and project findings like Roe vs. Wade.

We've come a long way since the founding fatehrs postulated a "loose federation". at this point, we're almost as centralized as a European nation, and certainly more so than the EU.

Get used to it.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 24, 2011 @ 8:28 am

Everything is very open with a very clear clarification of the issues.
It was truly informative. Your website is extremely helpful.
Many thanks for sharing!

Posted by Conveyancing Lawyers on Sep. 21, 2012 @ 11:20 am

There is no end to the xenophobia harboured by many Americans. It's a fact that many of the so-called illegal immigrants are helping our economy by workign in jobs that regular Americans do not want to do. We need a better way to deal with the illegals, but persecuting them and criminalizing them is not the way to go.

Posted by Bill Martin on Sep. 24, 2012 @ 1:41 am

unfunded mandates now?

Posted by Guest on Dec. 14, 2011 @ 3:58 pm

I see no difference in SCOM than if I am arrested for something or the other, even though I may not be convicted of the crime I was arrested for but I may have a warrant for my arrest in the same data base.

It is already a crime to be in this country illegally. That's where do process calls for a deportation hearing if you are suspected of being here in this country illegally.

Posted by Jerry Jarvis on Dec. 14, 2011 @ 5:55 pm

What you allow the government to do to immigrants eventually trickles down to the rest of us~


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 14, 2011 @ 6:17 pm

To a great extent the mainstream Liberal media appear traumatized by the old traditional issue, that there are only TWO foremost alternatives of what to do with the officially estimated number of 11 million illegal aliens (a disinfected figure.) This is for those persons who are residing without permission in this sovereign nation; either deporting them or allowing a Path to citizenship.

Americans welcome intelligent highly skilled, engineers, scientists and technological professionals, who will never need welfare assistance. But we must draw the line on millions who are already here or right now bluffing agents at airline terminals, the border entries or just stealing into our country in the dead of night; adding to the crippling poverty already present amongst Americans, especially citizens with no work.

Nowhere is this counterfeit proposal more perceptible than in the media conduct of Mitt Romney's immigration proposal. It is substantially obvious to the American person, which in essence smells of Amnesty. No presidential contender has debated more about the particulars of dealing with the 11 million populations than Romney. He has told the numerous audiences of what his opposition to amnesty is, for aliens and what he suggests to do with them?

The problem for the Liberal media against Mitt Romney is that he maintains a third preference that is generally known as “ATTRITION THROUGH ENFORCEMENT”, which doesn’t include anything like mass deportation and legalization. It’s a easy program giving access to a government website, that illuminates whether you can be hired or not and official directions what to do if you are flagged. The application also costs absolutely nothing to arrange, with its outcome--once going at full steam--is self-deportation that also cost nothing to taxpayers. However, the national press turns a blind eye, which has everything to do with removing illegal aliens from the workplace. God forbid that--Romney should receive any credit for his innovation that purely conveys his values, to difficult for most established Republican Members of Congress (and Democrats). But the Texas Governor should at least get a merit badge for having that position. Then we have Michele Bachmann, THE TRUE TEA PARTY CHAIRMAN. Bachmann needs to gain more momentum by establishing her stand more on the illegal immigration occupation.

Bachmann of Minnesota needs to press her opposition against Obama’s Department of IN-justice, as there ugly treatment of Arizona, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, Utah and soon North Carolina who are concerned by foreign national parasites, leeching the welfare assistance in those states; yet excluding not suing California, Nevada, Colorado, New York and others, who have declared their cities sanctuaries for illegal aliens and still receiving federal funds. In addition Bachmann should cite a second bill that has 80 sponsors is H.R.140, titled the Birthright Citizenship Act of 2011, which was introduced by Rep. Steve King of Iowa, which will establish that babies smuggled into our nation, for the sole purpose of illegal parents to take advantage of the taxpayers. From the time of entry the parent can collect public entitlement, using the child as a pivot to remain here. Benefits will accumulate over many years of health care, education and further welfare supplements. If you cut off the billions of dollars in welfare and cash payments to ‘foothold children’, millions of illegal migrants and immigrants will leave, knowing there will be no more—FREE HANDOUTS.

Rep. Bachmann has the highest grade of B-, determined by the pro-sovereignty group NumbersUSA, then followed on her heels by Romney who is graded at C-. Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich has dropped to a D-, after adopting that illegal alien solution, for those who have settled here for at least twenty five years and should receive a pardon, although not eligible for citizenship. One must wonder how Gingrich is going to construe who arrived here 25 years previous, or even ten years ago. For starters--how did they get a job, if the federal government was carrying out enforcement? Then again to get a job, they had to hand over a Social Security number to be hired. In other words they made up a SSN, and used fraudulent documents. So isn’t that a—FELONY?

This is why the House must pass the ‘Legal Workforce Act’ or better recognized as E-Verify. This is why Americans must come together and press the federal, State Representatives to co-sponsor Bill H.R. 2885. This is the only avenue left to control unauthorized workers stealing jobs from lawful American workers and legal residents, as nothing has been seriously done since the Simpson-Mazzoli bill inception in 1986. That is why the numbers of illegal aliens have been climbing ever since and too the majority of Americans, well past 20 million.

I was surprised that two Democrats have now co-sponsored the “Legal Workforce Act’, which is generating enormous support from the American people. It’s the taxpayer voters, who are contacting their Representatives in the House and Senate, determined not to be ushered to the side lines and demanding the E-Verify law. Thousands are calling 202-224-3121 to be directed to their federal and state political members and having a nationwide impact. Why not make your vote known by doing your civic duty in demonstrating that illegal aliens must go home. Can you even imagine what the hundred billion dollars plus that is going to subsidize illegal immigrants, can financial assist your states funds?

The US Border Patrol doesn’t have the manpower to halt drugs, illegal aliens crossing the border. The government refuses to build the real double fence as enacted in 2006. We need a military presence on the border to aid the Border agents as terrorists disguised as Southern border invaders are arriving here. This is also a National Security threat as murderers from the Middle East are out to kill us.

Don’t be fooled by the Democrats and Liberal Progressives that illegal alien do pay their fair share in taxes. Those who do are insignificant, and use the IRS ITIN number and receive $4.6 Billion dollars back in tax credits.

The Department of Justice director Liberal Eric Holder as implicated in the ‘Gun-walking’ scheme, known as ‘Fast and Furious’ and the death of Brian Terry, a US Border Patrol agent killed by the American government incompetence. The man is now the driving force to use his power against states that have enacted laws to stop non-citizens voting in our elections. Remember the fraudulent canvassing group ‘ACORN’ as they are back on the map, assuming another name and having been prosecuted in 11 states. In conclusion the Liberal Progressives who are evidently pushed ‘POLITICAL CORRECTNESS’ are at it again, trying to force us to retire the term ‘Illegal alien.’ Illegal Aliens are voting and will do again. No matter if it federal, gubernatorial, state or local non-citizens should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law if caught voting. The easiest document to forge is the ‘Absentee ballot’ and should be checked carefully against voting rolls.

This is not going over well with the TEA PARTY, that if you stole into America which is a violation of the law, and then you are a—ILLEGAL ALIEN. Not an undocumented worker. THAT’S WHY ILLEGAL ENTRY SHOULD BE RECOGNIZED AS A FELONY. YOU CAME HERE WITH THE DELIBERATE INTENTION OF STAYING, WITH A VISA OR NO VISA. I recommend all Americans who came here legally, need to associate themselves with the TEA PARTY. America is on the rails to very unstable future and the only hope for us is the TEA PARTY. Find out facts of the corruption and lies steering us in the wrong direction and read investigations at Judicial Watch, which will open your eyes to rot that is tangible in Congress.

INSIST OBAMA’S DEMOCRATS APPROVE THE KEYSTONE PIPELINE. Don’t let the Liberals hold hostage cheap oil, or Canada may sell the oil to Communist China. America has massive deposits of oil, natural gas and coal that can be cleaned, lasting for a hundred years, but has been put on hold by the party of higher taxes, copious government and swollen departments. The Tea Party offers reduced government as contained in the US constitution, a new fair tax system and abolishment of an IRS that is out-of-control. This includes returning central government agencies such as the Dept of Education to the power of the state.


Posted by Dave Francis on Dec. 14, 2011 @ 7:20 pm

According to the Migration Policy Institute, "the labor-force participation of male undocumented immigrants is 94%, exceeding the rate of both native-born and work-authorized immigrant men." Moreover, a recent UCLA study reveals that legalizing undocumented immigrants would help the economy~


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 6:04 pm

How can you hate America that much, Lisa?

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 7:03 pm

MYTH: Immigrants are a drain on our social services.

FACT: By paying taxes and Social Security, immigrants contribute far more to government coffers than they use in social services.

"Most non-citizens are not even eligible for the majority of welfare programs unless they are legal permanent residents and have resided in the United States legally for at least five years. This includes benefits such as Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), SSI, Medicaid, and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP).

"Moreover, according to government reports, noncitizens are much less likely than citizens to use the benefits for which they are eligible. For example, immigrants, especially the undocumented, tend to use medical services much less than the average American.3 In fact, the average immigrant uses less than half the dollar amount of health care services as the average native-born citizen.4 Moreover, the claim that immigrants account for high rates of emergency room (ER) visits is refuted by research; in fact, communities with high rates of ER usage tend to have relatively small percentages of immigrant residents."


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 6:17 pm

Theres probably more illegals in SFthan anywhere. I say go home

Posted by Guest on Dec. 14, 2011 @ 7:41 pm

When did we lose our common sense? Our Government, has allowed the invasion of 30 million criminals in direct violation of Article IV, Section IV of our Constitution. they force American tax payers to pay Billions to provide Welfare, Prison cells, Educate the invaders children, free medical care,massive document fraud, & are destroying our schools, hospitals, communities, culture while Robbing, Raping, Killing & Assaulting American Citizens WE ARE BEING INVADED! WAKE UP PEOPLE!
An education is a good thing.

step #1 http://bit.ly/oBuTUd
Every Non-representative including obama and holder are not upholding the oath of office! they swore to defend the Constitution! If these clowns were to do their job, this would all be a Moot point!
Anchors and their criminal parents go, period, you knew you were breaking the law when you crossed the border.
Next shut down any business hiring illegal labor. Oh and owners go to jail.
any better ideas? lets hear them!

I come for visit, get treated regal,
So I stay, who care I illegal?
I cross border, poor and broke,
Take bus, see employment folk.
Nice man treat me good in there,
Say I need to see welfare.
Welfare say, "You come no more,
We send cash right to your door."
Welfare checks, they make you

Medicaid it keep you healthy!
By and by, I got plenty money,
Thanks to you, American dummy.
Write to friends in motherland,
Tell them come as fast as you can.
They come in rags and Chebby

I buy big house with welfare bucks.
They come here, we live together,
More welfare checks, it gets better!
Fourteen families they moving in,
But neighbor's patience wearing thin.
Finally, white guy moves away,
Now I buy his house, and then I say,
"Find more aliens for house to rent."

And in the yard I put a tent.
Send for family (they just trash),
But they, too, draw the welfare cash!
Everything is mucho good,
And soon we own the neighborhood.
We have hobby--it's called breeding,
Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist? Wife need pills?
We get free! We got no bills!

American crazy! He pay all year,
To keep welfare running here.
We think America darn good place!
Too darn good for the white man

If they no like us, they can go,
Got lots of room in Mexico


Posted by steve on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 3:27 am

Steve, you and the other angry nativists are simply wrong in your paranoid claims about immigrants getting rich off of welfare. Most don't qualify by virtue of their immigration status, and your deluded fantasies about how much money and services people who do receive welfare get has no resemblance at all to the truth, particularly after years of deep cuts to government because the wealthy of this country -- who are far more parasitic than the average worker -- refuse to pay their fair share in taxes. Most studies have shown that low-wage immigrants have a positive effect on this country: doing the jobs few Americans will do and holding down the price of food and many services. Your dehumanizing language in describing my neighbors in the Mission District is insulting and racist. As for those who have said immigrants aren't welcome here, you can speak for your own homes and communities. San Francisco welcomes immigrants of all kinds, far moreso than you redneck racists who are the real people dragging this country down.

Posted by steven on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 11:24 am

Two strange racialist posts in row.

One strange rightish one followed by typical leftist race theory. Neither of much use.

It is interesting to see Steve shill for big business.



In Mexico, during the first eight months of 2005, more than 120,000 people from Central America were deported to their countries of origin. This is a much higher number than the people deported in the same period in 2002, when only 1 person was deported in the entire year.[10] Many women from Eastern Europe, Asia, United States and Central and South America are offered jobs at table dance establishments in large cities throughout the country, causing the National Institute of Migration (INM) in Mexico to raid strip clubs and deport foreigners who work without the proper documentation.[11]

Mexico has very strict laws pertaining to both illegal and legal immigrants.[12] The Mexican constitution restricts non-citizens or foreign-born persons from participating in politics, holding office, acting as a member of the clergy, or serving on the crews of Mexican-flagged ships or airplanes. Certain legal rights are waived, such as the right to a deportation hearing or other legal motions. In cases of flagrante delicto, any person may make a citizen's arrest on the offender and his accomplices, turning them over without delay to the nearest authorities.

Many immigration restrictionists in the United States have accused the Mexican government of hypocrisy in its immigration policy, noting that while the Government of Mexico and Mexican Americans are demanding looser immigration laws in the United States and oppose the 2010 Arizona Immigration Bill, at the same time Mexico is keeping even tighter restrictions than the Arizona law on immigration into Mexico from Central America and other places.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 12:25 pm

immigration policies should frequently be reminded of how much stricter are the rules in most other nations when it comes to dealing with illegals.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 12:44 pm

That progressives like Steven keeps claiming to speak for this massive number of people on every issue.

Mexico's laws on the books are much harsher than ours and they often enforce them, our progressives need to ignore that so they turn the rule of law into another facet of their race theory.

Sure there are racists who are anti-illegal immigrant. It's much easier to attack that fraction than to form a coherent world view. Everyone does it, but note how outraged they have been getting when you point out the many Haight St drop outs who make up occupy camps towards the end there.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 1:29 pm


Being undocumented is NOT a crime in Mexico. It is an administrative transgression (it was decriminalized in 2008). Andres Oppenheimer, a Miami Herald columnist, points out the differences between the AZ law and Mexico's immigration law~

"Two key differences between Mexico's current law and Arizona's:

"First, in Mexico, being an undocumented immigrant is not a crime, nor a misdemeanor, but an administrative transgression. This means that in Mexico, unlike in Arizona, nobody can be sent to jail for breaking immigration rules. Those who violate immigration rules have to pay a fine, and can only be deported if they are caught by immigration authorities.

"Second, in Mexico, police can't ask about the migration status of a person, even if that person has been stopped for lawful reasons. Mexico's police can only notify immigration authorities when immigrants volunteer, for instance, that they are illegally in the country on their way to the United States.
By comparison, the Arizona law requires that the police request immigration papers from people it stops for whatever other lawful reason."


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 5:28 pm

It's a crime in AZ which doesn't represent the whole of the United States anymore than Chiapas represents the whole of Mexico.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 5:52 pm

Thousands? Hundreds of thousands. If you think the cops in Mexico worry about your rights in anyway...

I think it was the Political Man by Lipsett where he mentions that true believers on the left and right never have a wrong answer.

Meaning, they always have some reason why they are right about something, no matter how thin. Again, it's probably something we all do to some extent, but true believers are extreme cases.

All nations in the world enforce their citizenship laws, well, some don't really have to, but anyways. Mexico has a better economy than some countries farther south so they do what they feel they must to keep jobs for their own people. American progressives operate in a vacuum and moan out racism around the rule of law. The same rule of law that the people they fetishize uphold when they are in power elsewhere.

The weird left has a fair amount of people who border on creepy anti-semitism, most people see it as a minority not really worth mentioning. There there are the neo-cons who obsess over it endlessly. Read David Horowitz

In the case of illegal immigration the far left suffers from the same bizarre affliction that the neo-cons do.

Posted by matlock on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 5:52 pm

Since it is treated as a civil violation, not a crime, the government gets around the Constitutional rights afforded to anyone charged with a crime.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 6:49 pm

It's an illegal, criminal act to be in this country without a valid visa.

Which is why we throw them back to whatever shothole they crawled out of. They are scum and slime, leeching off our good nature.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 7:12 pm

This garbage is exactly why a bunch of uneducated bigots should not be involved in setting any sort of policy. I could barely get through some of the more wordy rants due to spelling, grammar & usage issues.

Learn the difference between 'their' & 'there'
Before demanding anyone go back anywhere

Add that to your bigoted poem.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 3:28 pm

the only comment is a spelling correction.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 4:46 pm

It's a very old tradition to blame every problem in society on immigrants. It was wrong when people blamed Germans immigrants for problems, then the Irish, etc., all the way to the present hysteria about Latinos - it's still wrong.

There are good and bad people in every group, immigrants included. All of us who grew up going to school and work with people born in different countries know this.

Every day at work and among my neighbors I see people who work hard to support their families, Some of them get stopped for a broken taillight or whatever little reason, then the police call ICE. ICE doesn't need any real evidence to put a hold on someone and they never get dinged for putting on a hold wrongly, so they always do it.

Legally, ICE holds are 'civil,' not 'criminal,' so the conditions are supposed to be more reasonable. However, criminal defendants have the right to bail or O.R., the right to demand a hearing ASAP, and the right to have a lawyer. ICE *could* allow you to bail out, but they never do. They *could* allow you to ask for a hearing about the hold, but they never do. It routinely takes weeks to get a bond hearing in immigration court. Meanwhile, you stay in county jail (at local taxpayer expense) until the county court procedure is over.

The result is that you lose your job and your employer and family pay a disproportionate price. Infractions are not supposed to result in even one day jail time, but people spend months in jail for infractions. It's a crazy system. Every American I meet who has had family members caught up in the immigration court system is astounded that it really does work in this stupid, inefficient, costly way.

I am proud of the SF Supervisors who are pushing to make the Obama Administration think about reforming this ridiculously destructive system called Secure Communities.

Posted by David on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 8:13 am

Is not open borders.

Your entire diatribe is based on constitutional rights, while complaining that we should ignore the constitution when it suits your needs.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 8:44 am

Soince the perps aren't citizens, they are denied many of the basic rights that you and I would have e.g. a right to a jury trial or free legal representation.

So in practice they tend to be incarcerated pending their extradition. Which is fine with most people but I don't think there is much support to extend the reach of constitutional protections to non-citizens, especially those who have already broken the law.

It's not just a civil matter - that's a gross misrepresentation.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 10:40 am

It is NOT a crime for someone who is undocumented to be present in this country without authorization. It is a civil violation. Once here, they have the same rights as US citizens under the Constitution~ the right to a trial by jury, to due process, to legal representation, etc. Read the ACLU position paper on immigrant rights~

"In decisions spanning more than a century, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution's guarantees apply to every person within U.S. borders, including "aliens whose presence in this country is unlawful." [...] the government has the power to decide who to let into the country and under what circumstances. But once here, even undocumented immigrants have the right to freedom of speech and religion, the right to be treated fairly, the right to privacy, and the other fundamental rights U.S. citizens enjoy."


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 5:56 pm

any legal right to be here. The fact that you believe otherwise shows everyone here how loaded, prejudicial and wrong-headed your opinions are.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 7:02 pm

If you're going to troll why not at least find something to cite. Wikipedia? Rush Limbaugh's blog? A quote from some crazed Minuteman civilian currently "protecting" the Texas border?

Lisa's entry continued a nice thread of thoughful, alternative viewpoints - a rarity on this website. The posts previous to yours respected the reader's intelligence, free of the usual raunch and juvenile taunts that accompany most posts here. Then the Anonymous you comes along and makes a conclusion that most likely fits your preconceived reality without even a whisper of evidence or analysis that readers could consider. And then you throw in a couple of personal slaps on the side. (Nice way to treat a lady poster too, by the way.)

I think the kids call that an Epic Fail. Good thing you're posting your personal attacks and unsupported opinions anonymously since credibilty takes years to restore. But at least you're showing the readers the nonsense the progressive team has to put up with: unsubstantiated conclusions; spurious allegations; personal attacks.

Nice job adopting the worst tactics of many members of the progressive team. Hopefully they will work for you better than they've worked for them.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 12:00 am

Where she got it wrong, I refuted her simply and effectively.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 6:56 am

I agree that it's best to avoid personal attacks because it almost always undermines your argument. But debating restricitonists is a good way to develop a thick skin. Most of the time, I don't even react to the personal swipes (it speaks for itself).

Posted by Lisa on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 5:46 pm

While the other guy refuted both.

If you can't see your bias, you're doomed to repeat your errors.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 5:59 pm

Lisa was able to back up her facts with links to links to legitimate sites like the NY Times. The other guy was the one offering (biased) opinions. You must think that the readers were born yesterday.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 7:24 pm

And if you think Lisa's statements aren't biased in the extreme, because of her extreme left-wing views, than you have no credibility either.

She starts out with her opiniosn, and then gropes around the internet looking for something, anything, that might support it.

It's called "confrimation bais". Google it, since that is evidently the only way you know of learning anything new.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 17, 2011 @ 6:51 am

"As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year."


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 6:26 pm

Or they're using someone else's number.

You make no sense.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 6:38 pm

Not that Lisa cares about that.

Posted by Anonymous on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 7:04 pm

Who had their number used by an army of illegal aliens.

It was a nightmare for her.

I also started getting different garnishment letters from all over the west for child support and whatnot.

The progressive answer for this is of course to legalize all these good folks.

Posted by Matlock on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 8:07 pm

stop opining on matters that we never elected them to consider.

Immigration is a matter of federal law and it's disgusting that this city should try in any way to protect illegals from the legal implications of their actions.

The vast majority of people in this nation support zero tolerance for illegals. SF has no business interfering with that.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 15, 2011 @ 8:29 pm

from one's paycheck you stupid idiot.

And it thereby goes into the Social Security fund.

Posted by anonymous on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 12:16 am
Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 6:57 am

"So what?"

If a legal citizen was working that job and the wages it would be going there anyways.

Also more would be going into SS because wages would not have been driven down by an influx of labor.

Posted by Matlock on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 4:00 pm

In the case of identity theft, the Supreme Court ruled (Flores-Figueroa v. US) the government must prove that the accused "knowingly" used a means of identification belonging to another person. More often, immigrants simply make up a fake SS# ~

"Undocumented immigrants in this country frequently make up Social Security numbers in order to work. This accomplishes three things: (1) their employers can legally employ them; (2) the immigrants can get a job; and (3) federal taxes are withheld from their paychecks. It is estimated that this use of fake social security numbers creates a boon of some $7 billion to Social Security annually and $1.5 billion to Medicare—two government programs not available to these workers."


Posted by Lisa on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 5:31 pm

The payroll company will get a hold of you and tell you that you entered the wrong number and ask you to straighten it out because that number does not exist, or the illegal immigrant will be fucking up someones account that the illegal immigrant guessed at and got one.

Neither case is a success.

Our progressives think laws are for other people to obey.

Posted by anon on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 6:35 pm

unless they've improved their processes very recently.

And then the employee simply leaves and the employer gets a small fine.

We need mandatory prison for anyone faking a SSN.

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 6:44 pm

Is that your latest pro-illegals rationalization?

Posted by Guest on Dec. 16, 2011 @ 5:49 pm